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Thread: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

  1. #81
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Remember when the understanding was that Roger and Whitebeard were these great equals coming up together. Turns out WB was the henchman of Rogers actual rival and only made a name for himself after his old Luffy was killed by Roger. Good times.
    I second this motion. Rocks crew and super mega ultra awesomeness messes with so many aspects I like.



  2. #82
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I really wonder why Sengoku pretends he doesn't know stuff about the D's while showing super nervous at Whitebeards statement about the One Piece.

    So far, it's looking like both things are super connected, yet Sengoku doesn't ask questions or is too affraid to do so.
    It's a 4th Level Secret.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  3. #83

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    So is Rocks the previous user of Pica's fruit...

  4. #84
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    The chapter reminds me the avengers since in ultimate universe they are the ultimates. And Rocks had a collection of the best.



  5. #85
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Remember when the understanding was that Roger and Whitebeard were these great equals coming up together. Turns out WB was the henchman of Rogers actual rival and only made a name for himself after his old Luffy was killed by Roger. Good times.
    Wouldn't call him henchman. The chapter states it was an alliance whose members were constantly at each other's throats. It's most likely one of the reasons they lost/disbanded on God Valley. Don't see it as that different from these Supernova alliances. Do think it would have left a better taste if Oda didn't made it seem like they were all under one man's flag. But I guess that's supposed to speak of Rocks's strength and presence of his character. Hope Oda delivers on that.

    The "Hero of the marines" and the fact Garp doesn't talk about it reminds me greatly of how reluctant Smoker was in the aftermath of Alabasta. Garp probably wasn't a decisive force in that confrontation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    I remember I asked Greg something. I asked "Hey Greg, what does the Japanese fandom feel about the second half of the manga" because I wanted to see just how much expectations differed from American sensibilities. He said and I quote something along the lines that "They miss when it used to be about the crew and their friendship" which I thought was what the american fanbase felt as well... until I see all this gushing about Worldbuilding.

  7. #87
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Krupp View Post
    I remember I asked Greg something. I asked "Hey Greg, what does the Japanese fandom feel about the second half of the manga" because I wanted to see just how much expectations differed from American sensibilities. He said and I quote something along the lines that "They miss when it used to be about the crew and their friendship" which I thought was what the american fanbase felt as well... until I see all this gushing about Worldbuilding.
    Reminds me the different appreciations for dragon ball.



  8. #88
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Krupp View Post
    I remember I asked Greg something. I asked "Hey Greg, what does the Japanese fandom feel about the second half of the manga" because I wanted to see just how much expectations differed from American sensibilities. He said and I quote something along the lines that "They miss when it used to be about the crew and their friendship" which I thought was what the american fanbase felt as well... until I see all this gushing about Worldbuilding.
    It's just a sugar high. Every world building chapter causes an uproar. Oda drops bombs after months or years of waiting for developments.

    I imagine every long time fan wants to see more of SH and their interactions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    That's an argument I strongly disagree with. It would be like if we go 5 years in the future and we learned Zoro left and joigned some other crew. My problem is not how awesome the captain is but how it doesn't match the character that made this choice.

    Now we can disagree on what a character would or wouldn't do. But Rocks is great so nothing we know about the character matters is not a good argument.
    As I said in the first part of the post you're quoting, we can't pretend that we understand every nuance about these characters, especially about them 40 years ago. Whatever made them join Rocks can be completely inside the scope of their personalities and drive, and they were young too and thus a little different from today. Furthermore, we still have to know the context that lead to the formation of that crew, since we know that at least some of them were already pirates before, like Linlin.

    I'm only highlighting that Rocks is probably someone that have the means to guide people or at least persuade them. Those folks don't follow him randomly.

    Zoro is an excellent example, by the way. He liked Luffy since the beginning, but he only accepted to follow him as long as their journey made him closer to becoming the strongest swordsman in the world. Maybe he would accept the proposal of another captain too if Luffy never showed up in his life, even if this alternative reality failed him. It was only arcs later that Zoro became completely devoted to Luffy above his own dream. In the same way, at first these future Yonkou probably decided to follow Rocks because he could help them achieve their goals, and that's how he recruited all these young talents... except that Rocks never had the charisma and integrity to make them as loyal as the Strawhats are.

    And let's not forget that people grow stronger in stronger crews. Certainly being in that overpowered crew gave these guys the experience they needed to rule the New World later in their lives, and that's why we know them.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Wouldn't call him henchman. The chapter states it was an alliance whose members were constantly at each other's throats. It's most likely one of the reasons they lost/disbanded on God Valley. Don't see it as that different from these Supernova alliances. Do think it would have left a better taste if Oda didn't made it seem like they were all under one man's flag. But I guess that's supposed to speak of Rocks's strength and presence of his character. Hope Oda delivers on that.
    Well i mean either he is throwing in his lot with someone he truly believed in and wanted to make king, or he whored himself out to someone he didn't even like as hired muscle. And since the chapter suggests none of them got along it leans toward him making himself subordinate to someone he never truly cared for like his sons cared for him or the strawhats care about each other. I realize henchman is a dismissive term but it ain't a good look for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Krupp View Post
    I remember I asked Greg something. I asked "Hey Greg, what does the Japanese fandom feel about the second half of the manga" because I wanted to see just how much expectations differed from American sensibilities. He said and I quote something along the lines that "They miss when it used to be about the crew and their friendship" which I thought was what the american fanbase felt as well... until I see all this gushing about Worldbuilding.
    Does it have to be mutually exclusive?

  11. #91
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Well i mean either he is throwing in his lot with someone he truly believed in and wanted to make king, or he whored himself out to someone he didn't even like as hired muscle. And since the chapter suggests none of them got along it leans toward him making himself subordinate to someone he never truly cared for like his sons cared for him or the strawhats care about each other. I realize henchman is a dismissive term but it ain't a good look for him.
    Maybe it was closer to mutual benefit alliance, after which it's everyone for themselves. Just like what Kaido and BM are doing now. Take down WG and then see who's left standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  12. #92

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Maybe it was closer to mutual benefit alliance, after which it's everyone for themselves. Just like what Kaido and BM are doing now. Take down WG and then see who's left standing.
    Well i mean if it was a captain alliance i could see it more clearly. But he was their captain and they his crewmembers. And even then why would the Whitebeard who, until further retcon, only wanted a family benefit from world conquest? It's not a solid fit methinks.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Selph View Post
    What's the deal with the different names of the pirate island? Scans call it Beehive while the official translation call it Fullalead. I see from the wiki page that it is called Hachinosu in japanese. Can someone elaborate?

    I like the overall flow of Sengoku's speech better in the official version. And is Fujitora saying that he was one of the schichibukai or that he was one of the necessary sacrifices to keep them going? It's a bit confusing.
    Hachinosu literally translates as "beehive" (蜂の巣). Hachinosu is also a figurative term to refer to something that is covered in little holes. Figuratively, something being "full of lead" has been shot full of holes. Shitty translations go literal, but the official translation understands beyond the word-level.

  14. #94
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    As I said in the first part of the post you're quoting, we can't pretend that we understand every nuance about these characters, especially about them 40 years ago.
    But we can discuss if it match the rest of what we know about the characters and if it improve or diminish them.


    Whatever made them join Rocks can be completely inside the scope of their personalities and drive,
    And that's what we should establish. Not wether or not Rocks was awesome.

    A good example is that I think that Big Mom wouldn't have joined and someone replied to me that she might have joigned because she found others of her size something she's been missing since she was a kid. Something we actually know about Big Mom. We disagreed but he actually gave me a reason that is related to what we know about Big Mom not we didn't see it so it's ok.

    and they were young too and thus a little different from today.
    Them being young should be take into account but it shouldn't be a reason for anything goes.

    Furthermore, we still have to know the context that lead to the formation of that crew, since we know that at least some of them were already pirates before, like Linlin.
    New information might reframe the discussion later but we do the current discussion with current information


    I'm only highlighting that Rocks is probably someone that have the means to guide people or at least persuade them. Those folks don't follow him randomly.
    Which is what we are discussing. What did they saw in him or what did he give them to make them his followers. Instead of just handwaving it away based on his great charisma. I have to suppose they didn't suddenly lose their brain cells when they met him and actually had agency in joining.



    Zoro is an excellent example, by the way. He liked Luffy since the beginning, but he only accepted to follow him as long as their journey made him closer to becoming the strongest swordsman in the world. Maybe he would accept the proposal of another captain too if Luffy never showed up in his life, even if this alternative reality failed him. It was only arcs later that Zoro became completely devoted to Luffy above his own dream.
    See in your example you take Zoro personality into account and come up with Luffy failing him to explain their eventual falling out. You don't just handwave his personality away because his new boss is awesome. You search an explanation that matches the character. Which is what we should do.


    In the same way, at first these future Yonkou probably decided to follow Rocks because he could help them achieve their goals, and that's how he recruited all these young talents... except that Rocks never had the charisma and integrity to make them as loyal as the Strawhats are.
    Now that's a real theory. They joined to achieve their golas together. I disagree but it an actual theory that tries to look at why the character did it instead of discounting what we know of them.
    And let's not forget that people grow stronger in stronger crews. Certainly being in that overpowered crew gave these guys the experience they needed to rule the New World later in their lives, and that's why we know them.
    I don't think anyone complained the yonkos were weak.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Well i mean if it was a captain alliance i could see it more clearly. But he was their captain and they his crewmembers. And even then why would the Whitebeard who, until further retcon, only wanted a family benefit from world conquest? It's not a solid fit methinks.
    I could see Whitebeard boarding a ship for adventures in his young years before later settling in and making a family. I always saw him as a family man not a let's save the world man so I have no problem with him travelling with assholes. I don't think he minds the killing. My problem is more why did they all end up being in that one crew. Even freaking captain John that is legendary to Buggy was there.



  15. #95

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Krupp View Post
    I remember I asked Greg something. I asked "Hey Greg, what does the Japanese fandom feel about the second half of the manga" because I wanted to see just how much expectations differed from American sensibilities. He said and I quote something along the lines that "They miss when it used to be about the crew and their friendship" which I thought was what the american fanbase felt as well... until I see all this gushing about Worldbuilding.
    God, i sure do miss that.
    StrawHats have barely been together since they entered the New World. Splitting up, not seeing them for years in real time because one is on Whole cake island, the other on Wano.

    No more fking splitting them up after Wano ffs.

  16. #96

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    I could see Whitebeard boarding a ship for adventures in his young years before later settling in and making a family. I always saw him as a family man not a let's save the world man so I have no problem with him travelling with assholes. I don't think he minds the killing. My problem is more why did they all end up being in that one crew. Even freaking captain John that is legendary to Buggy was there.
    Adventures yes, but does one actively decide to wage war on the WG with zero conviction of ones own? I mean are we supposed to think that this just happend to be WB's first pirate crew who just coincidently strived for total world domination which he had no real thoughts about.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Does it have to be mutually exclusive?
    It most certainly doesnt. Not at all. I'm not saying this as a hard rule...but the fact that its THESE chapters that turn viral on Twitter does make you think...doesnt it*?

    *This too is tongue in cheek. LOL. Think of the "Rocko caused the fall of the Roman Empire and the sinking of the Titanic" from the Rocko's Modern Life episode "Ed Good, Rocko Bad"!

    *

  18. #98

    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    This can't be WB's first pirate crew because we saw a younger version on him in another pirate ship in that one flashback (he didn't even have the 'stache in that one, but he had it in Rocks).

  19. #99
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Adventures yes, but does one actively decide to wage war on the WG with zero conviction of ones own?
    Well He goes where the captain goes. I doubt Nami cares much for the piracy aspect but it's good chance for mapping. Of course if Whitebeard was the one who sought him out then i would find it strange. If he was a really powerful town thug recruited by Rocks with promise of knowing more than his village than I can see it.

    I mean are we supposed to think that this just happend to be WB's first pirate crew who just coincidently strived for total world domination which he had no real thoughts about.
    Could be known like Luffy recruited Zoro. Heard a rumor about that powerful guy. Got him into piracy.

    My biggest problem with the whole I'm a henchman thing is Big Mom. Everything in her flashback tells me she would never be one and she has never been one.



  20. #100
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    Default Re: Chapter 957: ULTIMATE

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Well i mean if it was a captain alliance i could see it more clearly. But he was their captain and they his crewmembers. And even then why would the Whitebeard who, until further retcon, only wanted a family benefit from world conquest? It's not a solid fit methinks.
    Maybe he just wanted WG out of the picture. We lack some serious info about the character, but he was shown wanting a family before he even grew those mustaches, which we can see him sporting already by the time he joined Rocks.

    Maybe Rocks simply wasn't as bad as Sengoku makes him seem, or WB chose lesser of two evils and threw his chips down with Rocks. I'm seriously doubting that terrorist image he's given. If you look at it like that, SH are also terrorists who declared war on WG and had some of their exploits kept a secret.
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

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