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Thread: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes

  1. #3741
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Let's clear this up.
    http://www.philosophybasics.com/bran..._nihilism.html

    It holds that there are no objective moral facts or true propositions - that nothing is morally good, bad, wrong, right, etc - because there are no moral truths (e.g. a moral nihilist would say that murder is not wrong, but neither is it right).

    Even saying something like, ants are terrible but they aren't as bad as humans is making a moral evaluation. It's not nihilistic. Like by the definition of nihilism.

    Following your selfish desires is not nihilistic. It might be objectivist or hedonist. But whatever, this isn't philosophy class haha.

    But Gon and Killua's involvement in the chimera ant arc has next to nothing to do with saving people. The whole reason Gon is there is first to learn from Kaito about Ging and nen, and then to save Kaito's life/avenge his death. Killua, as usual, is just along for the ride with his buddy.
    Maybe when they first get there. But when they join the infiltration squad and enter the country they are given a clear choice to either follow the plan and sneak in, or break the plan and warn the citizens. Togashi even frames it as a philosophy 101 choice; sacrifice these millions to save billions. And they choose to risk billions to save millions.
    Netero, one of the most highly regarded characters, forces himself to discard his humanity (or embrace only the evil aspect of it...?), even in the face of realizing that Meruem is becoming more humane than any other human of status in the HxH world. Value isn't placed on Komugi because she is a person with her own life and worth, but because she is an important person to the King. Yes, she reveals to Meruem that there is value in all life, but that value is only there because apparently all life has the potential to become something capable of unlocking nen and hunter-like abilities... but at what cost?

    Netero is highly regarded for his strength, not his moral character. The election arc showed that even some hunters thought his priorities were messed up.
    Right, because this story is only about Gon and Killua. Right. I forgot.
    and Kurapika. and Leorio. These are our protagonists. And they all have humanizing features. If you are trying to use villains and side characters to argue your point then I think you're reaching.

  2. #3742

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Sure, it's hedonistic... but so hedonistic that it even throws out the value of literally any life but your own. Hell, it even throws out the value of your own life, where people in the story are literally sacrificing their lives left and right to seek fulfillment of their desires. Togashi is telling a story about how nothing but your personal goals matter.

    And that's really kind of despicable! It's funny that you think the whole story is about the protagonists, when half of them have arguably had less screen time than whole swaths of the side cast. If this is a story about Gon and Killua, then why haven't we seen them for, what, twenty chapters?

    The fact that Togashi loves to fill the story with an endless supply of characters who all have a similar philosophy of hedonistic nihilism, and that they drop like flies along with uncountably many nameless normies makes my point for me.

  3. #3743

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    I think that's an unfair evaluation that applies our standards to the world Togashi created.
    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    You're just wrong about the nihilism bit. You seem to be using your own moral standards to judge the manga, which isn't how it works.
    Why shouldn't I apply my/our moral standards to the HxH world? The HxH world is just an extension of our world in that it was created by a person from our world. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

    In any case, I think that I'm getting from you guys is that the HxH world, or at least the Hunters in them, are exempt from typical morality because they're these weird super-powered ubermen whose brains are wired differently, and it doesn't matter because they (mostly) don't get normal people involved. Well, if you get something out of that, fine, but I'm personally not into a bunch of amoral creeps killing each other for material gain.

    Oh yeah, and the Hunter Association lets kids take the exam because of course a 12-year-old kid is capable of making that decision.

    For one thing, HxH is already a big story with an extensive cast, and losing one or two minor faces that never had to be important is not really that harmful to the series. Togashi already has trouble managing everyone, so I'd argue that doing some housecleaning serves a purpose in fixing that a little.
    That's the thing. Togashi didn't have to bring them back at all.

    I also think that the way he used them was pretty smart. They're recognized faces and established characters, so having them killed off sorta palpably raises the stakes.
    How did killing them raise the stakes? What did their deaths accomplish that Kite's didn't?

    Like, I don't know if it was Togashi's intention to kill them off from the start. Maybe he wanted to have them a bigger role and it didn't pan. In any case, the way they were brought back and killed just felt really cruel, mean-spirited, and pointless.

    Nihilism says there is no moral code to be followed and nothing can be judged as right or wrong. That's obviously not the case in Hunter x Hunter because we explicitly see they have criminals, showing that there are laws in place.
    Very inconsistent laws. Like, it's stated once that Hunters have an obligation to apprehend criminals, but, at the same time, violent criminals can be Hunters? And laws aren't the same thing as morality.

    Also, the main characters have their own moral systems they follow. But I'll address your points anyway.

    -In this universe the prevailing philosophy is if you are willing to put your life on the line, then you have to accept if you lose it. The exams have been going on for years and its not a secret to talk about how hard the exam is or that people die taking it, so its not like new applicants don't know what they are getting into when they go. They're willing to put their lives on the line.
    The problem isn't that they're putting their lives on the line. The problem is that there's no good reason for them to be putting their lives on the line.

    -The Hunter Association believes in survival of the fittest, and they want the most extraordinary talents.
    That's social darwinism, which, I thought we all agreed, is really fucked up.

    -Football, MMA, and boxing say hello. This is a more extreme version but again, they are more accepting of death as a consequence.
    Are you really equating modern day sports with a literal blood sport that it is perfectly okay with and even encourages people to kill each other? Yeah, some times people die or get horribly injured in football and boxing, but it's pretty rare, and when it does happen it's seen as a tragedy. It's not something people celebrate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Togashi himself went out of the way with the rose bomb to go "Yeah, the ants are bad, but the HUMANS, man, they're truly evil and nasty." Like a chapter full of narration explicitly making that point.

    Gon is definitely a better person than the villains, but Togashi explicitly made the point that everyone is pretty messed up and humanity as a whole is awful.

    WHich is basically an extension of the message he was doing at the end of YuYuHakusho but cut short because he got bored and ended the series abruptly.
    Yeah, that's pretty much it. I get this really misanthropic sadistic attitude from HxH and it's a big part of why I don't like it.

  4. #3744

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Is it okay to shrug off all of the dead bodies from the Hisoka/Chrollo fight as collateral damage? Were they really deserving of death just because they wanted to gamble over a martial arts match? Yes, the tower is worse than just a boxing arena. But the vast majority of the people in that audience were just normal people.

    Also, the chimera ants were toying with the lives of thousands and thousands of people in an entire country. They ate them indiscriminately and brainwashed even more of them, with the goal of slaughtering them or turning them into more chimeras. But even the chimera ants were shown to be more humane than the humans of that arc.

    And... the expedition to the dark continent is definitely not just a boat full of royalty and hunters. There are plenty of normal people on that boat. But I feel like they won't be living there for long, and there's probably not going to be much lamenting over their loss of life, either.
    Haven´t seen the fight yet, i guess spoiler alter but it´s obviously my fault

    Yeah but the ants had already shown that they, just instinctively, adapted to the eat or be eaten mentality as well. I mean i remember Killua fighting against that poison ant and once he broke her neck and revealed his immunity against poison, she immediately accepted her fate because she was weaker.
    And the "humanity" shown was only for the king iirc, which is also an instinct they had after all.

    Ah ok. I thought it had only the royal family who are competing for the title of king and the hunters on board.

  5. #3745

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Togashi might have fucked up with Gon being passive seeing people die, but during the ant arc he was very very mad at people killing each other without feeling anything. And so was Kurapika when he was torturing Uvoguin.
    The main)characters are not crazy. Except Killua, but Togashi pulled the needle thing out of nowhere. That's probably because he was a young immoral being when he started the manga but he grew up and got some moral. That's actually the whole point about Pariston and Gin. Pariston is the young Togashi, Gin in the nowadays Togashi (reflection of his ego). There is even a scene in which Gin tells Pariston he's wrong to be like that, that he's gonna show him why.

    If somehow someday we get the chapter in which Pariston starts crying like a hoe and understands moral is actually a thing. This would be great for character development. I don't think any other manga did this before. The egoistic man, manipulating everyone that ends up good.
    Last edited by Nilitch; June 11th, 2017 at 11:27 AM.

  6. #3746

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Ah ok. I thought it had only the royal family who are competing for the title of king and the hunters on board.
    Here's the boat. You see that cruise ship in the blowhole? That's the part of the boat with royalty. The rest of the huge whale his full of "lower class" people.

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  7. #3747

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    But yeah, Hisoka shouldn't exist, and th reason why he wanted to be hunter is dumb.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    And yes, human bad, greedy, egoistic and everything is what Togashi wants to portray. Not saint, nor good. Even Netero was a bit crazy.
    The current game of thrones is there to show that people can turn into evil motherfuckers when power can be obtained.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Ants are not bad, they're just following their instinct, eating humans. It's like saying lions are evil because they eat people (eventually).

  8. #3748

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    And yes, human bad, greedy, egoistic and everything is what Togashi wants to portray. Not saint, nor good. Even Netero was a bit crazy.
    The current game of thrones is there to show that people can turn into evil motherfuckers when power can be obtained.
    The problem is I don't think Togashi really portrays the greedy powerful people in HxH as a problem. That's just how their world works and we're supposed to be cool with it.

    Ants are not bad, they're just following their instinct, eating humans. It's like saying lions are evil because they eat people (eventually).
    The thing about the ants is that once they absorb human DNA, they do kind of become and start to develop morality, so it's like where does the human begin and the ant end. Point is, once they have human DNA, do you stop judging them on a instinctual animal level and apply human standards to them? Because you can't have it both ways.

  9. #3749
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Why shouldn't I apply my/our moral standards to the HxH world? The HxH world is just an extension of our world in that it was created by a person from our world. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.
    Exactly. Whenever you engage with fiction, it will always be filtered through ones' societys moral code; if you read a story where women are treated like garbage as a matter of course, then its gonna come off as highly unpleasant, even if it makes sense within the morality of that specific fictional universe. Of course, the deciding factor is whether the thing is meant to come off as unpleasant or not, e.g. Handmaids Tale vs Bakuman.

    On that note, in the brief time I spent with HxH, I never felt the pervasive lack of empathy was really used for anything. It was the equivalent of Rick and Morty, only without the consistent spotlighting of Ricks amorality, or Mortys PTSD. The HxH verse felt comparatively more alien and unsettling, in large part due to the fact that characters can express empathy; Gon and his friends care about each other and help each other. Gon saves a stranger from drowning. Kite scolds Gon for forcing him to kill a bear needlessly, and forcing him to kill its cub. Leoriro wants to become a doctor to help people. Kurapika wants revenge for dead loved ones. These are all relatable emotional responses...which makes the cynical indifference towards death all the more jarring.

  10. #3750
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Why shouldn't I apply my/our moral standards to the HxH world? The HxH world is just an extension of our world in that it was created by a person from our world. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.
    You don't apply your moral standards for the same reason you don't apply your scientific standards. It doesn't work or at the very least will leave you feeling dissatisfied. This is a fictional world so it doesn't need to align with the real world's physical, moral, or scientific standards. Fictional works don't have to strive for real world consistency. They only need to adhere to internal consistency which Hunter X Hunter does.

    In any case, I think that I'm getting from you guys is that the HxH world, or at least the Hunters in them, are exempt from typical morality because they're these weird super-powered ubermen whose brains are wired differently, and it doesn't matter because they (mostly) don't get normal people involved. Well, if you get something out of that, fine, but I'm personally not into a bunch of amoral creeps killing each other for material gain.
    Yeah I find them interesting and I don't look for morality in works of fiction. If that's what you are looking for then I can see how you would find a lot of the characters off putting.
    Very inconsistent laws. Like, it's stated once that Hunters have an obligation to apprehend criminals, but, at the same time, violent criminals can be Hunters? And laws aren't the same thing as morality.
    That disparity was a major plot point in the election arc, which made it clear that the Hunter Associations current philosophy was set by Netero. Laws aren't the same thing as morality, but they are strong indictators that a concept of right and wrong is present in a society.
    The problem isn't that they're putting their lives on the line. The problem is that there's no good reason for them to be putting their lives on the line.
    you mean a good reason like being the most free man on the sea or finding some treasure. Getting a hunter's license comes with a ton of perks, and just having one means you wouldn't have to work another day in your life if you didn't want to.

    That's social darwinism, which, I thought we all agreed, is really fucked up.
    I'm not saying that the philosophy is good, I'm saying that Netero isn't just making wild decisions for no reason. There is a set of ideals behind his actions.

    Are you really equating modern day sports with a literal blood sport that it is perfectly okay with and even encourages people to kill each other? Yeah, some times people die or get horribly injured in football and boxing, but it's pretty rare, and when it does happen it's seen as a tragedy. It's not something people celebrate.
    Yes? Again, this is a fictional world so it doesn't need to be a one to one ratio. We watch violent sports. These fights are drawing from that. Are you also morally outraged that Impel Down had torture floors for their prisoners? Oda was clearly drawing from maximum security prisons, but there isn't a floor of lava in a real prison.

  11. #3751
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Why shouldn't I apply my/our moral standards to the HxH world? The HxH world is just an extension of our world in that it was created by a person from our world. It doesn't exist in a vacuum.

    In any case, I think that I'm getting from you guys is that the HxH world, or at least the Hunters in them, are exempt from typical morality because they're these weird super-powered ubermen whose brains are wired differently, and it doesn't matter because they (mostly) don't get normal people involved. Well, if you get something out of that, fine, but I'm personally not into a bunch of amoral creeps killing each other for material gain.

    Oh yeah, and the Hunter Association lets kids take the exam because of course a 12-year-old kid is capable of making that decision.
    Because if you're arguing that the series is amoral, then I think it's useful to point out that there is an underlying and somewhat internally-consistent philosophy, and that the characters need to be understood in their relation to it. I'm not arguing that you can't use your own morality to judge the series, just that you're being unfair if you're not recognizing that there is a morality there in the first place.


    That's the thing. Togashi didn't have to bring them back at all.


    How did killing them raise the stakes? What did their deaths accomplish that Kite's didn't?

    Like, I don't know if it was Togashi's intention to kill them off from the start. Maybe he wanted to have them a bigger role and it didn't pan. In any case, the way they were brought back and killed just felt really cruel, mean-spirited, and pointless.
    Maybe 'raising the stakes' was a bad phrase, but it certainly does more to invest you than killing off another couple of randos. Compare the impact of killing off those two characters who we know to some extent against Naruto's final war with its 'half of all ninjas were killed' shtick. That's an extreme example with a bunch more problems to it, but a big part of its failure is that none of those characters matter. Having a recognized name and a face there does wonders for investment.

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  12. #3752
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Exactly. Whenever you engage with fiction, it will always be filtered through ones' societys moral code; if you read a story where women are treated like garbage as a matter of course, then its gonna come off as highly unpleasant, even if it makes sense within the morality of that specific fictional universe. Of course, the deciding factor is whether the thing is meant to come off as unpleasant or not, e.g. Handmaids Tale vs Bakuman.
    Obviously you can't be completely objective when reading fiction, but its not a question of filtration. It's a question of application. Filtration says I'm reading a story about gladiators and I identify that those principles wouldn't fly where I live. Application says I'm reading a story about gladiators and I criticize the work because it doesn't adhere to the principles I live by. I love Chicago even though virtually every character in it is greedy, self serving, and dishonest. I can recognize those character traits because I filtered it through my moral prism, but I can still enjoy the work because I don't apply my prism on them. Same thing for the Sopranos, Goodfellas, or any good gangster flick.

  13. #3753

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    Yeah I find them interesting and I don't look for morality in works of fiction. If that's what you are looking for then I can see how you would find a lot of the characters off putting
    What do you look for in fiction then? Cool visuals and people killing each other senselessly?

    My point is, in any story there's generally a person that we're supposed to root for, and we root for them because we like them. And part of us liking them is that they appeal (or at least don't offend) our moral sensibilities. And this goes for any story set in any universe in any context. If we find the characters to be morally reprehensible, then it's a lot less likely that we'll like them and want to root for them. And if we're repulsed by them, then why should we care or want them to succeed?

    Like, would you still like Gon and be invested in his story if he was a horrible racist or an indiscriminate murderer?

    you mean a good reason like being the most free man on the sea or finding some treasure. Getting a hunter's license comes with a ton of perks, and just having one means you wouldn't have to work another day in your life if you didn't want to.
    In the One Piece world, becoming a pirate is not some organized thing that operates within the law. Everyone does it at their own discretion and, yes, puts their lives on the line, but it's not part of some larger organization that deliberately puts them in harms way because, "Oh, we need to be absolutely sure these guys are worthy of having our special club card, nevermind the fact that we're throwing away hundreds of human lives every year."

    Yes? Again, this is a fictional world so it doesn't need to be a one to one ratio. We watch violent sports. These fights are drawing from that.
    Yeah, no, this is not a slight difference. There's a huge difference between people occasionally dying or being seriously injured, and people being killed or crippled on a regular and it being celebrated. And again, it'd be one thing if Togashi was trying to make commentary about how we watch people beat each other senseless, but I never got that impression.

    Are you also morally outraged that Impel Down had torture floors for their prisoners?
    Umm...yes? Weren't we supposed to be?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    Because if you're arguing that the series is amoral, then I think it's useful to point out that there is an underlying and somewhat internally-consistent philosophy, and that the characters need to be understood in their relation to it. I'm not arguing that you can't use your own morality to judge the series, just that you're being unfair if you're not recognizing that there is a morality there in the first place.
    Well, I'm not a philosophy expert, so okay, fine. I suppose there is some internal morality to HxH, but it's a really fucked up morality. And it greatly gets in my way of liking the characters.

  14. #3754

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    HxH has an individualistic philosophy, and there is nothing wrong with that tbh.

  15. #3755

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    What do you look for in fiction then? Cool visuals and people killing each other senselessly?

    My point is, in any story there's generally a person that we're supposed to root for, and we root for them because we like them. And part of us liking them is that they appeal (or at least don't offend) our moral sensibilities. And this goes for any story set in any universe in any context. If we find the characters to be morally reprehensible, then it's a lot less likely that we'll like them and want to root for them. And if we're repulsed by them, then why should we care or want them to succeed?

    Like, would you still like Gon and be invested in his story if he was a horrible racist or an indiscriminate murderer?
    I am not necessarily talking about HxH, it´s still a adventure shonen after all, even with all the supposed destructing, but i do think there are different reasons to enjoy fiction other than liking and empathizing with the characters and root for their journey.

  16. #3756

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    I am not necessarily talking about HxH, it´s still a adventure shonen after all, even with all the supposed destructing, but i do think there are different reasons to enjoy fiction other than liking and empathizing with the characters and root for their journey.
    That's why I said "generally"

  17. #3757

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    That's why I said "generally"
    You think so? For example, considering what movies are successful nowadays, you think emotional investment is required?
    People mostly go see movies because the action is appealing with a high budget for example which would fall under cool visuals.

  18. #3758
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    tbh most battle shonen heroes are unrelatable paragons of power. Some are just more likable than others. When you think about it, though, not a whole lot separates Luffy from Gon.

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  19. #3759
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    What do you look for in fiction then? Cool visuals and people killing each other senselessly?

    My point is, in any story there's generally a person that we're supposed to root for, and we root for them because we like them. And part of us liking them is that they appeal (or at least don't offend) our moral sensibilities. And this goes for any story set in any universe in any context. If we find the characters to be morally reprehensible, then it's a lot less likely that we'll like them and want to root for them. And if we're repulsed by them, then why should we care or want them to succeed?

    Like, would you still like Gon and be invested in his story if he was a horrible racist or an indiscriminate murderer?
    Fiction is pretty broad but in children's comic books I look for cool powers and interesting characters. I'm a simple man haha. And you have a very strict requirement for main character. Tony Soprano, Walter White, Don Draper, Henry Hill. All morally repugnant but we watch them because we are fascinated by their characters. I personally found Gon most interesting in the Chimera ant arc, when he showed a dark side that led him to threaten a defenseless girl and almost attack an unarmed opponent. So yes, I wouldn't mind if he was a murderer or a racist as long as he was interesting and the writer knew what he was doing.

    In the One Piece world, becoming a pirate is not some organized thing that operates within the law. Everyone does it at their own discretion and, yes, puts their lives on the line, but it's not part of some larger organization that deliberately puts them in harms way because, "Oh, we need to be absolutely sure these guys are worthy of having our special club card, nevermind the fact that we're throwing away hundreds of human lives every year."
    So people can choose to be in harm's way to get something they want if they do it independently outside the law, but they can't choose to join an organization to get something they want if they know the organization will put them in harm's way?

    Umm...yes? Weren't we supposed to be?
    Haha this might explain our disagreement. The entire concept of theme levels and the ridiculous nature of some of the floors, a level heated by a pot of boiling blood lol, made the whole thing so far removed from reality that I can't take it seriously. I don't morally evaluate things that have no bearing on real life with real logic. That seems pointless to me. Impel Down isn't a glimpse at what prisons could be or how prisons were in the past. Oda wasn't trying to make a statement about the prison industrial complex. It's just a fake place in a comic book that isn't even realistic. So I wasn't morally repulsed by the prison. And you were. That might just be a difference in how we view these things.

  20. #3760

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    tbh most battle shonen heroes are unrelatable paragons of power. Some are just more likable than others. When you think about it, though, not a whole lot separates Luffy from Gon.
    Aside from how comfortable they are with fending for themselves in the wild... I don't think they're really that similar at all, actually. Gon is (was?) innocent to a fault, but I don't think that Luffy has ever really been that. And Luffy is extremely simpleminded, but Gon certainly appears to be crafty. But that distinction completely flips when it comes to fighting styles - Gon has almost no imagination when it comes to applying his nen whereas Luffy is extremely creative in combat.

    They both have dreams that they follow into various adventures, and are often extremely forthright about their intentions and ambitions, but I think that most similarities pretty much stop there. Luffy is definitely much more of a social butterfly and is far more interested in building friendships than Gon is, at least that's my impression.

    Edit: But, you know, regardless of their similarities/differences... this conversation isn't about the main characters. It's about a tonal difference in the two stories as a whole!
    Last edited by benjamminbrown; June 11th, 2017 at 03:13 PM.

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