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Thread: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

  1. #341

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    Seriously, you don't have enough critical capability for what makes a well-rounded character or not.
    Isn't it rather you who isn't critical enough ?

    Seriously why can't people accept that the behavior of Sanji doesn't please everyone without being called an idiot. You don't have the privilege to decide what is good and what is bad in the world so let people say what they want please.

  2. #342
    Flagon Snaggin' Dragon Kaido King of the Beasts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamiel View Post
    Luffy does know about Zeff's danger.
    All he knows is that Big Mom has the possibility of killing Zeff if Sanji refused to come to the wedding. Not that Big Mom and the Vinsmokes currently have a chokehold on Zeff currently. He has just as much cause to send the Fleet to Kamabakka Kingdom

    Plus, I'm not quite sure how the Fleet could even get to East Blue. They'd have to go back to Paradise, then find some way to get across the Calm Belt (which is difficult if not impossible for pirates to do), and sail all the way to Baratie. By the time they'd get there the wedding would be over.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    This must be some fake Sanji.
    You seem to be buying Sanji's entire act which even Luffy hasn't done. As repeatedly stated in the past five or so threads, Sanji is putting on an act of accepting his family and wanting to marry Pudding in order to protect Zeff and his crew. Even Pudding knows he's acting and she's in love with him.


    Spoiler:

  3. #343

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    When these guys signed up did they think it was going to be easy? You can try, but you can't protect everybody everywhere by such a sacrifice. He is even contemplating the good side of such a blackmail by loving Pudding up. This is far from normal. The Samurai code is complete deference to their vassals at the pain of death. They don't have any other allegiance. Thankfully, Zoro is a Samurai. If Sanji had just hinted Luffy about the issues when they fought, they might have been able to get the revolutionary army involved to help Zeff or even Bartolomew could help. Sanji does not believe in Luffy and at this point that is just wrong. Let's assume he is captured again by blackbeard and Zeff is under a threat, what happens then? Will he turn chicken then and try to settle gleefully? Hypothetically, this can same scenario can happen to Nami, Ussop, Chopper and maybe Franky. When you join a crew like this you become a major component that the crew cannot survive without. This is like the army, you can't decide to leave because of your family is threatened. You fight and do your best and die valiantly not becoming happy to marry a forced bride. Pudding has just shown she is more worthy than Sanji in standing by her values.

    I just wonder how Zoro will reconcile what Sanji has done to his Samurai code? Only a hara-kiri will do for him.

    You guys seem to live in denial of what is plain as pap. Sanji is tainted. Unless he is connivance with pudding or his sister or even his family there is no way out of this for him.

  4. #344
    Flagon Snaggin' Dragon Kaido King of the Beasts's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    When these guys signed up did they think it was going to be easy? You can try, but you can't protect everybody everywhere by such a sacrifice. He is even contemplating the good side of such a blackmail by loving Pudding up. This is far from normal. The Samurai code is complete deference to their vassals at the pain of death. They don't have any other allegiance. Thankfully, Zoro is a Samurai. If Sanji had just hinted Luffy about the issues when they fought, they might have been able to get the revolutionary army involved to help Zeff or even Bartolomew could help. Sanji does not believe in Luffy and at this point that is just wrong. Let's assume he is captured again by blackbeard and Zeff is under a threat, what happens then? Will he turn chicken then and try to settle gleefully? Hypothetically, this can same scenario can happen to Nami, Ussop, Chopper and maybe Franky. When you join a crew like this you become a major component that the crew cannot survive without. This is like the army, you can't decide to leave because of your family is threatened. You fight and do your best and die valiantly not becoming happy to marry a forced bride. Pudding has just shown she is more worthy than Sanji in standing by her values.

    I just wonder how Zoro will reconcile what Sanji has done to his Samurai code? Only a hara-kiri will do for him.

    You guys seem to live in denial of what is plain as pap. Sanji is tainted. Unless he is connivance with pudding or his sister or even his family there is no way out of this for him.
    Wait, so...you're saying that Sanji has no way out of this situation, but are criticizing him for not fighting?

    You seem to not realize that it is not just Sanji's life on the line. If he had nothing to lose then he would definitely try to escape/make trouble as he did in the early parts of this arc. But if he makes trouble, his crew and Zeff stand an extremely high chance of being killed, plus he loses his hands, which are his most vital instruments in the service of the Straw Hats. To him, the Straw Hats losing his services is far better than them meeting their deaths because of him.

    Sanji is not Zoro, who isn't even a samurai either (he's just like a samurai ). Sanji's code of honor revolves around putting his crew before himself and doing whatever it takes to protect their lives, even if it means sacrificing himself in the process. What he has to learn in this arc is to realize that he is worth something to the crew and that he is worth being helped. It's foolish to expect Sanji to follow Zoro's philosophy, because Sanji is not Zoro.

    And I should remind everyone that Zoro's ideals are not always good, just as Sanji's are not always good. Zoro's willingness to basically do anything to help his crew even if it means injuring himself would basically be suicide in this situation. Sure, he might free himself from cuffs by cutting off his hands, but then he would have the blood of those he loves on his hands. Just as Sanji's ideals are imperfect and should develop during this arc, the same would apply to Zoro if he were the one captured, just in a very opposite way. The approach needed is, thus, a happy medium.

    You're also conjuring up some really convoluted scenarios for what could have happened instead. The Revolutionary Army is an independent organization, not one that is at Luffy's beck and call, even if Luffy's dad and brother are in the organization (remember how Koala got angry at Sabo for abandoning their mission on Dressrosa to help Luffy?) Plus the Revolutionaries just got scattered by Blackbeard...and what do you mean by what Sanji would do if Blackbeard attacked the Straw Hats? You do realize that they are in Big Mom's territory, and Big Mom would not take kindly to Blackbeard being in there...And ultimately, if the Straw Hats end up getting in trouble somewhere else, Sanji won't help them. Why? Because any action from him would bring down Big Mom's wrath on the Straw Hats as well. Thus, even though he may not like it, he would stay put.


    Spoiler:

  5. #345

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    When these guys signed up did they think it was going to be easy? You can try, but you can't protect everybody everywhere by such a sacrifice. He is even contemplating the good side of such a blackmail by loving Pudding up. This is far from normal. The Samurai code is complete deference to their vassals at the pain of death. They don't have any other allegiance. Thankfully, Zoro is a Samurai. If Sanji had just hinted Luffy about the issues when they fought, they might have been able to get the revolutionary army involved to help Zeff or even Bartolomew could help. Sanji does not believe in Luffy and at this point that is just wrong. Let's assume he is captured again by blackbeard and Zeff is under a threat, what happens then? Will he turn chicken then and try to settle gleefully? Hypothetically, this can same scenario can happen to Nami, Ussop, Chopper and maybe Franky. When you join a crew like this you become a major component that the crew cannot survive without. This is like the army, you can't decide to leave because of your family is threatened. You fight and do your best and die valiantly not becoming happy to marry a forced bride. Pudding has just shown she is more worthy than Sanji in standing by her values.

    I just wonder how Zoro will reconcile what Sanji has done to his Samurai code? Only a hara-kiri will do for him.

    You guys seem to live in denial of what is plain as pap. Sanji is tainted. Unless he is connivance with pudding or his sister or even his family there is no way out of this for him.
    ZORO IS NOT A SAMURAI!
    He is a swordsman, but not a samurai! He also does not have any damn code!

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    Seriously why can't people accept that the behavior of Sanji doesn't please everyone without being called an idiot. You don't have the privilege to decide what is good and what is bad in the world so let people say what they want please.
    That is like 75% of what I wanted to say it.

  6. #346
    Corazón for SH!!! madriano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Sanji's such and ass, he should just try and beat the shit out of everyone. Why does he even care about that old shit face back in East Blue? That shitlord did nothing for him, he doesn't deserve it. Sanji should man up and fight. Why is he even scared to lose his hands? He could still cook with his feet. Just got those guys along his crew, because they sure as hell are ready take out an Yonkou head on this early even without the rest of their crew! Fuck the 'stache guy!

  7. #347

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Sorry he is not a samurai but he is closer to one than most. Anyway, let's see how this plays out.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Sorry he is not a samurai but he is closer to one than most. Anyway, let's see how this plays out.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_code

  8. #348

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    What exactly is the point of this Wikipedia Article?

  9. #349
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Last edited by Count Mario; December 6th, 2016 at 10:06 AM.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  10. #350
    I do, bro! I do! Shadowgreed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Sanji is a pis!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  11. #351
    Discovered Stowaway lokilasher's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    I've always wondered, what are your guys' thoughts on the Pirates of the Caribbean series? Personally I only cared for Captain Jack Sparrow in those movies, and couldn't care less about Orlando Bloom or Keira Knightley's characters.

  12. #352

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaido King of the Beasts View Post
    All he knows is that Big Mom has the possibility of killing Zeff if Sanji refused to come to the wedding. Not that Big Mom and the Vinsmokes currently have a chokehold on Zeff currently. He has just as much cause to send the Fleet to Kamabakka Kingdom

    Plus, I'm not quite sure how the Fleet could even get to East Blue. They'd have to go back to Paradise, then find some way to get across the Calm Belt (which is difficult if not impossible for pirates to do), and sail all the way to Baratie. By the time they'd get there the wedding would be over..
    I don't really see the distinction between the first part of your reply. The point is that Luffy knows that Sanji is being blavkmailed with a hostage situation. The fact that he doesn't know to whom doesn't feny the fact that he knows something is pulling Sanji's strings. And I've said that I don't see Luffy using the Armada like that. I don't think they'll show up until the final war, they all need to "improve" themselves and that would give them enough time.

    Don Sai and the rest of them come from West Blue, if I remember correctly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamiel View Post
    Try out my first game! All feedback is welcome, enjoy and thanks. Heroine: Kiku
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  13. #353

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    So is anyone significant going to die in this arc? RIP King Baum.



    Year of Sanji, let's go!

  14. #354

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    Isn't it rather you who isn't critical enough ?

    Seriously why can't people accept that the behavior of Sanji doesn't please everyone without being called an idiot. You don't have the privilege to decide what is good and what is bad in the world so let people say what they want please.
    Because Epoch isn't giving valid reasons for any of his opinions. You can think this arc is shit, that's fine. To each his own. But valid reasoning needs to be presented to make an actual case, not just "I wish Sanji would do X because he's Mr Prince, and be cool, and just know Luffy will fix everything" while ignoring the plot lines of the bomb on Sanji and Zeff being a target, something Luffy cannot fix right now and is not aware of.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

  15. #355

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Md-Martin View Post
    Because Epoch isn't giving valid reasons for any of his opinions. You can think this arc is shit, that's fine. To each his own. But valid reasoning needs to be presented to make an actual case, not just "I wish Sanji would do X because he's Mr Prince, and be cool, and just know Luffy will fix everything" while ignoring the plot lines of the bomb on Sanji and Zeff being a target, something Luffy cannot fix right now and is not aware of.
    So Zeff being a target explains that Sanji has to behave like a damsel in distress picking flowers and smiling like an idiot when big mum makes him a promise.
    Just because his mentor is threatened, a character who has been displayed as a strategist until now is displayed as a fool but it is perfectly "Rational" and "Normal".
    That a main character questions his place in the crew in the last part of the story is perfectly normal and rational because he has no choice. Yes he has the choice ! or are you telling me that he will marry Pudding and that Luffy and co will leave without him ? That won't ever happened. And don't give me that argument that it is breaking the 4th wall. Sanji should be convinced that it won't happened like we are but currently he is not because threatening his friends made loose him faith in Luffy destiny.

  16. #356

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    So Zeff being a target explains that Sanji has to behave like a damsel in distress picking flowers and smiling like an idiot when big mum makes him a promise.
    Just because his mentor is threatened, a character who has been displayed as a strategist until now is displayed as a fool but it is perfectly "Rational" and "Normal".
    That a main character questions his place in the crew in the last part of the story is perfectly normal and rational because he has no choice. Yes he has the choice ! or are you telling me that he will marry Pudding and that Luffy and co will leave without him ? That won't ever happened. And don't give me that argument that it is breaking the 4th wall. Sanji should be convinced that it won't happened like we are but currently he is not because threatening his friends made loose him faith in Luffy destiny.
    He's not questioning his place in the crew though. He knows that Luffy is stubborn and will persist, and he's just hoping to god he leaves it be so everyone he loves will still live.

    He's not being a damsel in distress, he's on the verge of a mental breakdown. For many of the past chapters they've highlighted him sulking at the balcony, grabbing at his wrists nervously, as Luffy said he's the one in the most pain here. He's not a damsel, he's the pawn in political marriage between one of the strongest pirates that can have his father figure killed with one Den Den Mushi call. The wedding is in a day. As of right now, this is the only way he thinks he can make sure everyone he loves still lives. Sanji said himself that for 13 years he escaped hell, and now he was back.

    Him going into love cook Sanji is VERY clearly shown to be him trying to find SOME piece of happiness in his own personally described hell. He was shown still being conflicted over his decision in this very chapter before thinking of Pudding, showing that this is him truly just trying to stay sane.

    From the Viz Translation:

    "Arrgh!! No, I Can't. I made a deal with Big Mom! She's gonna let the gang go! And if I just get married, I can save the Baratie too. Of course, it hurts to split from my crew, but at least nobody will die!! That's all that really matters! What's there to be upset about? And if I keep looking so tense... It will only cause anguish to my sweet Pudding, My only source of hope!! I'd be the lowest man alive if I caused that wonderful girl to worry!"
    He's his arms at risk confining him to an island, his father figure at risk to an Emperor, and he now has to worry about his crew because he knows that Luffy will keep trying to see him. He's panicking and clinging to the one person in this hell for him who has actually tried to help him and his friends(aside from Reiju).

    Your complaint seems more to be with Sanji not being displayed as he has been in previous arcs. You need to understand, when Sanji has done those "strategist" things, he wasn't a literal walking bomb with many of his loved ones in immediate danger. In those scenarios he was either unknown to the enemy(Alabasta in Rain Diners), or had sneaked off to screw with the enemies own technology(The Gates of Justice in Enies Lobby). It's not fair to complain about Sanji not doing strategist spy stuff when he's got a gun to his head.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

  17. #357

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    He's got a gun to his head and he does nothing to put it off. That's what I complain about.

  18. #358

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kdom View Post
    He's got a gun to his head and he does nothing to put it off. That's what I complain about.
    What do you think he can do

  19. #359
    Saemon Havarian Razh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Not pick flowers while looking like one of Kamabakka residents?
    Quote Originally Posted by Outerspec View Post
    Trying to understand Bleach is like trying to drink a bottle of bleach.

    It makes no sense and you'll be dead before you're finished.

  20. #360

    Default Re: Chapter 848 - "Goodbye"

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Not pick flowers while looking like one of Kamabakka residents?
    better than crying in corner
    What sanji is doing is what a normal human does
    He can also kill himself but this way luffy dies as well

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