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Thread: One Pace

  1. #2881

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    are you using the official subs or fansubs here?
    Official FUNi DVD subs are used for early OP, but modified to fit our terms and checked for accuracy.

    Yibis is used currently for Post-War and has been used for other Pace arcs after Sabaody, as the Crunchyroll subs are horrid. But they are also modified for term consistency and to remove any weird phrasing in the translation.

    Everything post Dressrosa uses Crunchyroll heavily modified. These subs are absolutely horrible unmodified, with typos, weird phrasing, and inconsistent terminology.

    One Pace - The One Piece anime without the filler and padding.
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  2. #2882

    Default Re: One Pace

    Crunchyroll's subs can be pretty bad. The part that jarred me the most was in Dressrosa when Sai says fuck.

    I wish I could remember what episode it was but idk. But I've saved the old screenshot this whole time (back when Crunchyroll's video player was still Flash). It's so jarring because I know Crunchyroll doesn't allow that level of swearing, at least not for One Piece.
    I wonder if the guy making the subs just stole from a fansub and forgot to take that part out. I wonder if they went back and fixed it at any point over these years.

  3. #2883

    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaxy 9000 View Post
    Drum is on the docket right after Little Garden or possibly even while Little Garden is coming out. Two different people are handling that part.

    I myself am handling the Enies Lobby Gap, while Sewil focuses on the Post-War gap. The Skypiea gap belongs to Feeso and it should continue eventually.

    But like always, there's no clear release path. Whatever gets done, gets released.
    Thanks for laying it out like this, quite fascinating to hear about what it looks like under the hood. Interesting to know there’s two teams working on the early gap.

    Really impressed with the recent pace of releases! Thanks to all the hard work, everyone.

  4. #2884

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaPikminCoder View Post
    Crunchyroll's subs can be pretty bad. The part that jarred me the most was in Dressrosa when Sai says fuck.
    https://64.media.tumblr.com/af9bedb8...18go1_1280.png
    I wish I could remember what episode it was but idk. But I've saved the old screenshot this whole time (back when Crunchyroll's video player was still Flash). It's so jarring because I know Crunchyroll doesn't allow that level of swearing, at least not for One Piece.
    I wonder if the guy making the subs just stole from a fansub and forgot to take that part out. I wonder if they went back and fixed it at any point over these years.
    It deeply saddens me that this isn't surprising. Crunchyroll in general just seems to be very much about quantity over quality and never goes back to fix old things. Given one pieces age demographic that level of swearing is clearly not intended. Thankfully I got into anime anthe d manga after quality official translations became available, but the little unofficial stuff I've seen is horrid. I saw this one dressrosa panel where doflamingo says "What the fuck is that little shit doing in the collesuem!?!?" during a google search once and it was so jarring if not hilarious.
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  5. #2885
    Discovered Stowaway Lord Gaimon's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Pace

    swearing is fine it's better than having the characters repeating "darn" or "crap"

  6. #2886
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    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    swearing is fine it's better than having the characters repeating "darn" or "crap"
    But it's just not the One Piece spirit. It's not meant to be that vulgar.

    Damn/Crap(on that level) is literally what they are actually saying. To make that into something its not, by putting the F word/ect, is not staying in line with what Oda wants/how the characters are. Its mischaracterizing which is never good.


  7. #2887

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zo-Na View Post
    But it's just not the One Piece spirit. It's not meant to be that vulgar.

    Damn/Crap(on that level) is literally what they are actually saying. To make that into something its not, by putting the F word/ect, is not staying in line with what Oda wants/how the characters are. Its mischaracterizing which is never good.
    Exactly, like it or not one piece is targeted towards children. the langauge itsn't intended to be that vulgar.
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  8. #2888
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    profanity in japanese and english isn't the same, the level of vulgarity you'll find in a WSJ series and an R-rated japanese film for example aren't that different, multiple characters in the series swear sanji says shit every other sentence.

  9. #2889
    Swords and Tangerines Zo-Na's Avatar
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    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Blake Bakes Cakes View Post
    Exactly, like it or not one piece is targeted towards children. the langauge itsn't intended to be that vulgar.
    Yup. And thats part of OP's charm really. It's so good because it can remain a happy light adventure while still dealing with a lot of dark themes. The dialogue remains light, for the most part, to not overburden readers/watchers. Oda does this so well. I really dont think One Piece would be as good as it is if it were a seinen series honestly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    profanity in japanese and english isn't the same, the level of vulgarity you'll find in a WSJ series and an R-rated japanese film for example aren't that different, multiple characters in the series swear sanji says shit every other sentence.
    But its literally in a magazine targeted for 13 year olds.

    One Piece is, basically, what would be PG13 in English. No hard swearing. No hard sexual content. No excessive gore.

    I am aware swearing in Japanese and in English is very different, Japanese having much less actual swears and its mostly about context/attitude/content/ect, but even then One Piece is clearly meant to always be pretty kid friendly. Oda has always given off that feeling in everything he writes. He may make a little dirty joke/answer a dirty joke in the SBS from time to time but its still mostly meant to be light and the jokes never get TOO bad.

    So while the swears in OP and the swears in an "r-rated" japanese film may be similar/the same its the context/attitude/actual content that wildly differ.


  10. #2890

    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Zo-Na View Post

    But its literally in a magazine targeted for 13 year olds.

    One Piece is, basically, what would be PG13 in English. No hard swearing. No hard sexual content. No excessive gore.

    I am aware swearing in Japanese and in English is very different, Japanese having much less actual swears and its mostly about context/attitude/content/ect, but even then One Piece is clearly meant to always be pretty kid friendly. Oda has always given off that feeling in everything he writes. He may make a little dirty joke/answer a dirty joke in the SBS from time to time but its still mostly meant to be light and the jokes never get TOO bad.

    So while the swears in OP and the swears in an "r-rated" japanese film may be similar/the same its the context/attitude/actual content that wildly differ.
    I agree that One Piece characters shouldn't be dropping f-bombs left and right (if anything it cheapens the words use), but you're projecting a lot of puritan values on the Japanese with phrases like "targeted for 13 year olds". What the Japanese think is appropriate for a 13-year-old and what a contemporary American/European does differ greatly. Sanji smoking is a good example of something Americans would balk at and have edited in the past. Oda seems to even push the envelope for WSJ with scenes like Whitebeard's death that got censored for the anime, the Japanese are far more restrictive when it comes to violence. Meanwhile, you say things like
    He may make a little dirty joke/answer a dirty joke in the SBS from time to time but its still mostly meant to be light and the jokes never get TOO bad.
    when someone in Japan doesn't think sex is a taboo subject for young boys. The notion it would be doesn't even cross their mind (barring full on nudity, but that's actually a weird legal construct from when Americans were occupying them.) A "dirty joke" to you isn't even dirty to the Japanese, it's just a sex joke. Have you ever actually read the original Japanese or just translations that others have done that have preconceived notions of what's appropriate for children?

    In the end this is purely a localization issue since, as has been established, Japanese vocabulary never developed proper swears. The question becomes should the work be released with the American notion of what is or isn't appropriate, (no swearing, violence is A-okay, boobs and other things need to be heavily censored) or try to preserve as much as the original context. Again, I am not advocating that One Piece should drop "fuck" every other sentence, it's obvious that is not the level of vulgarity it's portraying. Just be aware that the majority of your experience with WSJ has been sanitized by corporations and translation groups that have a Western mindset when it comes to child appropriate content.

  11. #2891
    Savvy Cartoonist TARIPAR's Avatar
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    Heyo, long time lurker of these threads and watcher of One Pace here. I can't express how excited I was when I found out about this project, since OP is so good but also so long (and filler-y). So I wanted to give a big and hearty thank you to everyone in the team pulling it off.

    One question I've had for a long time is this: what's the plan for Ace in Alabasta? I always wondered if this hiccup was part of why it's been pushed off for so long. Is he planned to be cut from the group somehow, or are you guys forced to incorporate him into the story till he leaves?

    Seems a bit like the Gaimon situation to me, where the anime has forced the timeline to diverge slightly because of Usopp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    I agree that One Piece characters shouldn't be dropping f-bombs left and right (if anything it cheapens the words use), but you're projecting a lot of puritan values on the Japanese with phrases like "targeted for 13 year olds". What the Japanese think is appropriate for a 13-year-old and what a contemporary American/European does differ greatly. Sanji smoking is a good example of something Americans would balk at and have edited in the past. Oda seems to even push the envelope for WSJ with scenes like Whitebeard's death that got censored for the anime, the Japanese are far more restrictive when it comes to violence. Meanwhile, you say things like when someone in Japan doesn't think sex is a taboo subject for young boys. The notion it would be doesn't even cross their mind (barring full on nudity, but that's actually a weird legal construct from when Americans were occupying them.) A "dirty joke" to you isn't even dirty to the Japanese, it's just a sex joke. Have you ever actually read the original Japanese or just translations that others have done that have preconceived notions of what's appropriate for children?

    In the end this is purely a localization issue since, as has been established, Japanese vocabulary never developed proper swears. The question becomes should the work be released with the American notion of what is or isn't appropriate, (no swearing, violence is A-okay, boobs and other things need to be heavily censored) or try to preserve as much as the original context. Again, I am not advocating that One Piece should drop "fuck" every other sentence, it's obvious that is not the level of vulgarity it's portraying. Just be aware that the majority of your experience with WSJ has been sanitized by corporations and translation groups that have a Western mindset when it comes to child appropriate content.
    I'll chime in on this since I know a fair bit about Japanese grammar. The bulk of this isn't even directed at you, but more knowledge in general for knowledge's sake for those who care to know it.

    Shounen manga is targeted to "shounen", which is designated as adolescent boys (12ish–18ish). PG-13 is a pretty fair comparison in that regard. You're correct in that 13 to the Japanese mind is different than 13 to the far more protective Western mind. However, that doesn't change linguistics.

    Our cultures value different things, yes (the West is as lenient on violence as the East is on sex), but that doesn't change the fact that grammatically くそ (kuso) means poop. The most vulgar that word could be translated is "crap" or "dung," neither of which are actually vulgar in the US. Year 1 Japanese students say くそ. Translating it as any kind of English swear is improper. Heck, I have issues with ばかやろう (bakayarou) being translated "dumb*ss" for the same reasons. ばかやろう means "idiot guy," or in the context where やろう replaces the "you" part of the phrase: "(very rude you) idiot." Moron or "you moron" is the strongest the Japanese grammar allows for. But that doesn't stop certain translators from tossing in English swears (and I assume it's to make it more mature sounding). As an aside, the dubism "You fool!" that Goku used in his final attack on Frieza was ばかやろう in Japanese. "You fool!" is probably the best translation when desiring to keep the dramatic element intact. Moron could sound too silly in these cases.

    And in the case of 畜生 (chikushou), it just means "beast." This eventually garnered an expletive use, but it's not like the word itself changed. When mad, Japanese people can shout beast into the sky to express frustration. It is such an odd word to translate as "d*mn it" or "Godd*mn it." These make no sense, even as expletives.

    tl;dr F and S have absolutely no place in anime subs unless the words are ファック (fakku) and シット (sh*tto), which are just the English words ported into Japanese. For an example of the latter, check out episode 2 of Sonic X, where Sonic unironically says it. It's rather amusing as an English speaker.
    Last edited by TARIPAR; August 7th, 2020 at 12:29 PM.
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  12. #2892

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    Quote Originally Posted by TARIPAR View Post
    I'll chime in on this since I know a fair bit about Japanese grammar. Shounen manga is targeted to "shounen", which is designated as adolescent boys (12ish–18ish). PG-13 is a pretty fair comparison in that regard. You're correct in that 13 to the Japanese mind is different than 13 to the far more protective Western mind. However, that doesn't change linguistics.

    Our cultures value different things, yes (the West is as lenient on violence as the East is on sex), but that doesn't change the fact that grammatically くそ (kuso) means poop. The most vulgar that word could be translated is "crap" or "dung," neither of which are actually vulgar in the US. Year 1 Japanese students say くそ. Translating it as any kind of English swear is improper. Heck, I have issues with ばかやろう (bakayarou) being translated "dumb*ss" for the same reasons. ばかやろう means "idiot guy," or in the context where やろう replaces the "you" part of the phrase: "(very rude you) idiot." Moron or "you moron" is the strongest the Japanese grammar allows for. But that doesn't stop certain translators from tossing in English swears (and I assume it's to make it more mature sounding). As an aside, the dubism "You fool!" that Goku used in his final attack on Frieza was ばかやろう in Japanese. "You fool!" is probably the best translation when desiring to keep the dramatic element intact. Moron could sound too silly in these cases.

    And in the case of 畜生 (chikushou), it just means "beast." This eventually garnered an expletive use, but it's not like the word itself changed. When mad, Japanese people can shout beast into the sky to express frustration. It is such an odd word to translate as "d*mn it" or "Godd*mn it." These make no sense, even as expletives.

    tl;dr F and S have absolutely no place in anime subs unless the words are ファック (fakku) and シット (sh*tto), which are just the English words ported into Japanese. For an example of the latter, check out episode 2 of Sonic X, where Sonic unironically says it. It's rather amusing as an English speaker.
    Thanks for the insight. Yeah idk why they're saying one piece is heavily censored when official translations use most swear aside from F*ck and Sh*t . They're are translations of things with worse or more fequent swears anyway, Jojo comes to mind. One piece is just generally not very vulgar in the swear department, he'll the funi dub has even been criticized for using too much profanity at times.
    Last edited by Blake Bakes Cakes; August 7th, 2020 at 01:01 PM.
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  13. #2893

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    I would like to just restate my position that "fuck" or "shit" should not be used very often in One Piece, nor other Shounen works (well, maybe excepting Chainsaw Man). It's heavily contextual, and you lose shock factor when you over use expletives. Expletives need to be exceptional to serve their intended purpose.

    Quote Originally Posted by TARIPAR View Post
    I'll chime in on this since I know a fair bit about Japanese grammar. The bulk of this isn't even directed at you, but more knowledge in general for knowledge's sake for those who care to know it.

    Shounen manga is targeted to "shounen", which is designated as adolescent boys (12ish–18ish). PG-13 is a pretty fair comparison in that regard. You're correct in that 13 to the Japanese mind is different than 13 to the far more protective Western mind. However, that doesn't change linguistics.

    Our cultures value different things, yes (the West is as lenient on violence as the East is on sex), but that doesn't change the fact that grammatically くそ (kuso) means poop. The most vulgar that word could be translated is "crap" or "dung," neither of which are actually vulgar in the US. Year 1 Japanese students say くそ.
    I agree with your general sentiment, but it is irrelevant that "kuso" literally means "poop". "Shit", "feces", "poop", "dung" and "crap" all have the same meaning in so far as the literal object it is referring to. The difference is concerning the intensity and the context. The only exception in the previous list is that sometimes "shit" is just used as an expletive, however, in any casual context, "shit" could be used to refer to human feces grammatically correctly. In regards to Year 1 Japanese students using "kuso", you're again projecting a Western mindset on language policing. Just because children are saying it, doesn't mean it isn't vulgar, it means it's allowable for children to be (contextually) vulgar. Children in Japan start off with very informal, impolite language and will use it in multiple contexts that may not be appropriate. In Japanese culture, the way language changes as you get older and more aware of a formal/informal language that changes as vocabulary is refined for conjugation rules. Of course, eventually, either by parents or teachers, a child is taught when it is or isn't appropriate to useくそ (kuso) vs うんこ (unko) vs 糞 (fun). The mindset towards language is different on a fundamental level towards what a child should be talking like when they are a child vs when they are older and know better. This is hard to translate of course, because swears are the closest thing modern English has to a formality system (it is okay for children to swear when talking to other children, it is okay for adults to swear around other adults, it is not okay for adults to swear around children and vice versa). As I previously stated, this is an issue of translation strategy. If we go by literal translation then yes "shit" does not exist as a word in Japanese, nor "fuck", or any other swear. If we go by localization you want to replicate contextual vulgarity which is fundamentally subjective. If we start going down the route of literally translation though, translating any orgasm gets awkward because literal Japanese translates to "I'm going, I'm going".

    tl;dr F and S have absolutely no place in anime subs unless the words are ファック (fakku) and シット (sh*tto), which are just the English words ported into Japanese. For an example of the latter, check out episode 2 of Sonic X, where Sonic unironically says it. It's rather amusing as an English speaker.
    I agree that F and S have very few uses, as previously stated, but I won't budge on there being specially timed uses for them. (For reference the original screenshot in this thread is definitely not warranting of it.) While it is a different situation, you did bring up "PG-13 movies" and for context those ARE allowed to throw around "fuck" once or twice and "shit" as they like. As far as direct quotes goes, that's an entirely different discussion, taking into account that half of the Japanese population are not English speakers. There's enough pictures of graphic t-shirts from Asia including phrases like "chocolate fucking jesus" to understand that they aren't using fuck the same way an English speaker does. Again, this comes down to a translation strategy between literal and localization.
    Last edited by Chrona; August 7th, 2020 at 03:34 PM.

  14. #2894
    Savvy Cartoonist TARIPAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    I agree with your general sentiment, but it is irrelevant that "kuso" literally means "poop". "Shit", "feces", "poop", "dung" and "crap" all have the same meaning in so far as the literal object it is referring to.
    I disagree. I think it's very relevant. All five of your English examples are, after all, different words with different histories and intentions. The Japanese くそ does not have the same intention behind sh*t. Sh*t is explicitly vulgar in the majority of English speaking cultures. くそ is not vulgar in any Japanese culture. I would also argue くそ doesn't possess an intention for feces either, as the intention of feces in English is to abstract the crudeness of the object through a foreign language (i.e. Latin), so that it's "couth" to speak of in professional/medical circles. We also have excrement, which does the same thing as feces. It's abstracted through a foreign loanword. Japanese probably has a word for that use too, which would be a different word from くそ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    I agree that F and S have very few uses, as previously stated, but I won't budge on there being specially timed uses for them. (For reference the original screenshot in this thread is definitely not warranting of it.) While it is a different situation, you did bring up "PG-13 movies" and for context those ARE allowed to throw around "fuck" once or twice and "shit" as they like. As far as direct quotes goes, that's an entirely different discussion, taking into account that half of the Japanese population are not English speakers. There's enough pictures of graphic t-shirts from Asia including phrases like "chocolate fucking jesus" to understand that they aren't using fuck the same way an English speaker does. Again, this comes down to a translation strategy between literal and localization.
    Ah, I'm glad you brought that last bit up. I'm not a fan of localization as it's commonly done. It's a form of censorship/watering down imo. Whether it's changing the names of characters needlessly (Fire Emblem) or inserting mild language where there isn't any, I think it's silly, and you should instead port the original as faithfully as possible, linguistic quirks in all. Because then you actually pick up on how Japanese people think, and nothing is calqued or filtered out except basic parsing (it'd be weird if Japanese sentence structure was retained, as that'd be completely illegible in English 70% of the time). So that's probably where our perspectives primarily disagree. Since no Japanese person recognizes a "swear-tier" subset of words in their language, I don't think we should use any of ours to translate their words (unless, as stated before, they use one of our words for that purpose).

    Interesting convo. I appreciate the back and forth.

    EDIT: Also, it's a sin that no one has ever translated Sanji's kusojiji as Crap-pa.
    Last edited by TARIPAR; August 7th, 2020 at 03:51 PM.
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  15. #2895

    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by TARIPAR View Post
    I disagree. I think it's very relevant. All five of your English examples are, after all, different words with different histories and intentions. The Japanese くそ does not have the same intention behind sh*t. Sh*t is explicitly vulgar in the majority of English speaking cultures. くそ is not vulgar in any Japanese culture.


    Yes, I agree, "shit" is exclusively vulgar in English, and you only use it in casual context. That's why we're having this discussion in the first place. "Kuso" is not analogous to "shit" in all instances, this is where the concept of Japanese formal and informal language is important. English has no formality system since we dropped it in the 1600s, thus, we have no grammatical structures that are inherently vulgar in how you phrase sentences or words. We only have singled out crude words. I agree "kuso" is not 1:1 with "shit", because there is no 1:1 translation for "shit" in Japanese. Vice versa, there is no way to express Japan's formality system in English other than crude language, or for historical works falling back on shakesperean sounding language. Though, in the greatest of ironies, the "thee, thou" language associated with yesteryear is actually informal vulgar language, not formal language, which is what modern English is left with.

    I would also argue くそ doesn't possess an intention for feces either, as the intention of feces in English is to abstract the crudeness of the object through a foreign language (i.e. Latin), so that it's "couth" to speak of in professional/medical circles.
    I agree and literally pointed this out later with my comparison of "くそ (kuso) vs うんこ (unko) vs 糞 (fun)", "fun" being the equivalent of "feces". We both agree that context, history and other things matter. Not literal meaning. The fact that, literally, all of these Japanese words, and all of the English words listed (Shit, dung, excrement, poop, feces) refer to the same object is also something we agree on. It's the connotations of where it's used that matters. Let me restate, "kuso" is not 1:1 equal with "shit". Let's attack this from a different angle though. What is the most vulgar, informal way to refer to poop in Japanese? As far as any of my research, it's "kuso", nothing slides down more on the formality scale. If not "kuso", what word would you translate "shit" to in Japanese? Because it's not "うんこ" or "糞".

    Ah, I'm glad you brought that last bit up. I'm not a fan of localization as it's commonly done. It's a form of censorship/watering down imo.
    We agree on this explicitly. The problem literal translation problem tries to solve and localization tries to solve are two very different problems. However, there are certain contexts where translating literally is just obtuse. Again, to use an extremely vulgar example on the subject, translating a Japanese person having an orgasm as "I'm going, I'm going" instead of "I'm cumming, I'm cumming" benefits no one.

    Whether it's changing the names of characters needlessly (Fire Emblem) or inserting mild language where there isn't any, I think it's silly, and you should instead port the original as faithfully as possible, linguistic quirks in all. Because then you actually pick up on how Japanese people think, and nothing is calqued or filtered out except basic parsing (it'd be weird if Japanese sentence structure was retained, as that'd be completely illegible in English 70% of the time).
    I would agree, there are situations that are just silly, changing character names is a pretty stupid example of localization.

    So that's probably where our perspectives primarily disagree. Since no Japanese person recognizes a "swear-tier" subset of words in their language, I don't think we should use any of ours to translate their words (unless, as stated before, they use one of our words for that purpose).
    Again, I don't believe in localization unabashedly. If you're not going to localize to any degree though, how do you propose to capture Japanese thinking as far as formal language goes? There's no English equivalent to Japanese informal/formal scale. The conjugation changes, nouns change, but the words remain mostly the same give or take. The most basic example of this is that English has "you" (and used to have "thou") and Japanese has "omae", "anata", "kimi", "sochira", "kisama", "temee" and "onore", that is, when the Japanese even bother with pronouns. There's no literal way to translate these words differently. They all mean the same thing in English, "you". Yet you will lose a lot of context without some way of conveying tone and formality/vulgarity. We have to work with the tools given to us. Either you use English's closest equivalent to a formality system, the presence of lack of swears, or we need to engineer a formality system into the English to make translation in such a manner possible. The Japanese recognize vulgar speech, this can not be argued, what differs is how Japanese as a language executes vulgarity vs how English executes vulgarity.

  16. #2896

    Default Re: One Pace

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  17. #2897
    Savvy Cartoonist TARIPAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    Vice versa, there is no way to express Japan's formality system in English other than crude language, or for historical works falling back on shakesperean sounding language. Though, in the greatest of ironies, the "thee, thou" language associated with yesteryear is actually informal vulgar language, not formal language, which is what modern English is left with.
    That's actually one of my favorite bits of trivia about Early Modern English. Lol. It's basically the continued use of old hymns and the KJV Bible that have led to the idea that thou is formal rather than informal (even though they are actually informal in those works too). All because we lost our sense for linguistic history. But to your point, I think in cases where there is no good translation mechanically (-chan, -kun vs. -sama, which can easily be made Lord/Lady), importing the Japanese phrase works and the onus is on the reader/watcher to look up the meaning. I'll address the numerous Is, yous, and such below when you talk about that specifically. The only issue with Lord for -sama is in cases like otousama or okaasama. Lord Father and Lady Mother are admittedly clunky, but I'm personally okay with that clunkiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    I agree and literally pointed this out later with my comparison of "くそ (kuso) vs うんこ (unko) vs 糞 (fun)", "fun" being the equivalent of "feces". We both agree that context, history and other things matter. Not literal meaning. The fact that, literally, all of these Japanese words, and all of the English words listed (Shit, dung, excrement, poop, feces) refer to the same object is also something we agree on. It's the connotations of where it's used that matters. Let me restate, "kuso" is not 1:1 equal with "shit". Let's attack this from a different angle though. What is the most vulgar, informal way to refer to poop in Japanese? As far as any of my research, it's "kuso", nothing slides down more on the formality scale. If not "kuso", what word would you translate "shit" to in Japanese? Because it's not "うんこ" or "糞".
    Oh, see, that's easy from my perspective. There's already a convention for that. Sh*t is brought in as シット. There isn't a Japanese word for sh*t, so you import it into the language. Kuso is crap. Unko is poop. Fun is feces/excrement. Sh*tto is sh*t.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    We agree on this explicitly. The problem literal translation problem tries to solve and localization tries to solve are two very different problems. However, there are certain contexts where translating literally is just obtuse. Again, to use an extremely vulgar example on the subject, translating a Japanese person having an orgasm as "I'm going, I'm going" instead of "I'm cumming, I'm cumming" benefits no one.
    Again, this is a matter of taste, I guess. I think leaving the literal translation here informs you of the cultural difference. It's not hard to cross the bridge between go and come. "I came" and "I went" both make sense in this specific sexual context. If go/come had zero correlation in English, this would be an issue and I'd probably agree with you in this case. I haven't read up on why iku is used in that sense, but I would imagine it's related to the male orgasm and peeing. That's just a guess on my part though. Point is, a faux etymology can be established by the reader/watcher to cover that cultural gap and understand the usage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chrona View Post
    Again, I don't believe in localization unabashedly. If you're not going to localize to any degree though, how do you propose to capture Japanese thinking as far as formal language goes? There's no English equivalent to Japanese informal/formal scale. The conjugation changes, nouns change, but the words remain mostly the same give or take. The most basic example of this is that English has "you" (and used to have "thou") and Japanese has "omae", "anata", "kimi", "sochira", "kisama", "temee" and "onore", that is, when the Japanese even bother with pronouns. There's no literal way to translate these words differently. They all mean the same thing in English, "you". Yet you will lose a lot of context without some way of conveying tone and formality/vulgarity. We have to work with the tools given to us. Either you use English's closest equivalent to a formality system, the presence of lack of swears, or we need to engineer a formality system into the English to make translation in such a manner possible. The Japanese recognize vulgar speech, this can not be argued, what differs is how Japanese as a language executes vulgarity vs how English executes vulgarity.
    This one has always been a pickle when I've dabbled in translating. I'm not going to pretend my answer is best or that I have a "go to" way. Translating the various Japanese yous and Is is rather tedious. My first step is usually establishing the baseline and working from there. But since all the words mean the same thing (sort of; with different connotations and levels of rudeness), it's kinda impossible to do that. The most glaring example of a divide in my eyes is how one would translate kono ore-sama in parsable English. In Japanese, it's literally "this (formal, but also informal) I/me." The irony in Japanese is rather funny. Maybe the clunky translation "This Lord Me" would work. You still lose the informal I invoked by ore, but what else can you do? Perhaps using me, even when the subject of a sentence would convey the informality.

    For the yous, tbh, variations of you are all that could be done. Ya or y' could easily be used for everything beneath anata and kimi. Sochira is just "that one." It wouldn't need to be translated as a you. I immediately think of how the Khajiit speak in Elder Scrolls. "This one thinks. That one says."

    However, maintaining the insulting irony of kisama is nigh impossible unless we use a phrase like "your noble self" when it's clearly ironic. Kisama has its roots in the samurai age, where it was once genuine, but became mockery. Ki (noble) + sama (self, state of being) does not easily parse even from its constituent parts. This ends up being a matter of how much connotation without equal denotation should mean in translation. In a funny way, omae would probably directly translate to thou. But maybe we should consider our modern usage and flip them. Anata becomes thou, and omae becomes you. Thou in an ironic sense could also serve as kisama as well.

    Onore actually breaks down as "myself." It's use as "you" seems to be misunderstanding it as an interjection. As an expletive, it's similar to the expression "for Pete's sake" except we replace Pete with my. The interjections "I swear" or "my word" convey a similar idea, but I'm not satisfied with those either. Onore is usually grumbled or shouted, not said with exasperation or sighing.

    Point is, yes, this is confusing and annoying, but we can divide the actual uses of "you" from the words that don't actually mean you, but are used as you. Oy...

    I need to do a lot more research on this specific area though. Don't take this bit as any kind of dedicated decision on my part. Pronoun usage is primarily what's kept me from producing fan translations of my own (I think it'd be fun to do a re-translation of Pokemon Red/Blue one day).

    Lastly, when speaking of "vulgarity" vs. vulgarity, we should think more about rudeness vs. vulgarity. If we start with English vulgarity (swear words, etc.) as our baseline, Japanese "vulgarity" is not vulgar, but rude. If Japanese vulgarity is our starting point, English "vulgarity" is more akin to taboo, immoral, never-to-be-said speech. Again, it's crap vs. sh*t. Crap is rude and crass. Poop can be silly. Feces is formal. But sh*t is in a tier beyond crap. And this tier doesn't exist in Japanese convention. I've even heard that from Japanese people, so it's not like I'm trying to invent that standard.
    Last edited by TARIPAR; August 8th, 2020 at 07:30 AM.
    Hippity, hoppity, your shoulder is now Carrot's property.

  18. #2898

    Default Re: One Pace

    Enies Lobby 23 is out! With dual-audio!

    Torrent: https://api.onepace.net/download/tor...75363eb0b350f3

    Direct Download MP4: https://www72.zippyshare.com/v/VJ5IiHYi/file.html
    Last edited by Galaxy 9000; August 10th, 2020 at 12:29 PM.

    One Pace - The One Piece anime without the filler and padding.
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  19. #2899

    Default Re: One Pace

    So, we've been watching all the One Pace that's available and so far it's been mostly seamless and amazing.

    We just hit our first actual "Mistake" if it can be called that.

    In Loguetown you removed the scene where Smoker interacts with Luffy the first time where he says Luffy will need to get by him to get to the Grand Line, but the line later where he reminds Luffy of this was left in. So now he's like "Remember when I said that thing?" only in this version they've never met face to face until now.

    Switch Friend Code: SW-1795-2519-1884 • Click Here to check out my Twitch Channel

  20. #2900

    Default Re: One Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon Rin View Post
    So, we've been watching all the One Pace that's available and so far it's been mostly seamless and amazing.

    We just hit our first actual "Mistake" if it can be called that.

    In Loguetown you removed the scene where Smoker interacts with Luffy the first time where he says Luffy will need to get by him to get to the Grand Line, but the line later where he reminds Luffy of this was left in. So now he's like "Remember when I said that thing?" only in this version they've never met face to face until now.
    Additionally, there’s no brief flashback of Luffy meeting Alvida in One Pace even though there’s a panel showing her old look in the manga. My ex gf was confused when we watched One Pace because she forgot about Alvida by the time we reached Loguetown. That’s the only thing I remember thinking I would change during our whole watch. One Pace is truly excellent.

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