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Thread: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

  1. #4821
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Yeah Dany was super obviously going to be an evil queen that would make Cersei look tame.

    A strong, smart, and resourceful woman who we saw pull herself up by her bootstraps, starting out as pawn and having a transformation into a queen. She was sold into slavery, found power in that role, broke free, and then gained power and inspired love and admiration from her followers because she shows concern for them and for innocents. People freely choose to follow her.

    A queen who happens to spend her time on the other side of the sea freeing enslaved peoples, although nobody asked her to do that so I guess she should have just been minding her business and left it alone. Trying to find the best path forward by punishing those who did evil deeds with capital punishment, but she used fire instead of a rope or beheading um fire is the tool of crazy people.

    I mean, Idk what's in the books because I haven't read them but when people act like the early seasons set up Dany to be evil I just have to laugh. There is a reason why people were naming their freaking kids after this woman. Like it might have been foreseeable if this was a case of "these westeros people don't actually need to be saved but she can't see that because she has too much of a savior complex" or something in that vein, but no, she was just straight up evil.

  2. #4822

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Isn't it basicly a requirement after any big twist to have people go - oh i saw it coming all along. But i mean hats off to anyone who can scrounge up an old post where they foresaw the Hitler turn of Dany or the optional side story nature of the whitewalkers. I sure couldn't tell that was coming back in like season 4, but i'm also a well-known dum-dum
    I did, but I'm trying to remember what I was calling her or her dragons.

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  3. #4823

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    I did, but I'm trying to remember what I was calling her or her dragons.

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    Who knows how I write "Mesiah complex". But "If I look back I am lost" might prove successful.
    Good call on that one then.

    How early on did you guess it then? 2014? 2013?

    I honestly forget which years the early seasons came out

  4. #4824
    Discovered Stowaway MajinArekkusu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Why does Bran ask for a new master of whispers?

    He himself created basically a surveilance state, where he can see everything he wants in the kingdom.

    Although him literally doing nothing during the council meeting outside of telling them he's gonna go smoke some we...I mean look for the dragon, probably means he will do jack shit I guess.
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  5. #4825

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Good call on that one then.

    How early on did you guess it then? 2014? 2013?

    I honestly forget which years the early seasons came out
    Just checked, just found entitlement and worry, on myself, not "She'll burn kings landing". 2016.

    The usual of "lizards and fire resistance aren't leadership qualities" and "the slaver cities were left of worse, if that's possible".
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  6. #4826

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Whatever happened to the Valonqar and the Prince that was promised.

  7. #4827
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Game of Thrones is a series about catching you off guard with its brutality, and subverting old fantasy tropes, but also the "Woman goes craaaaaaazy with power cliche" is the endgame and is super foreshadowed all along



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    People also shouldn't be so down on the atrocious handling of Sanjis heritage, it was speculated that he was a prince for a really really long time after all

  8. #4828

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by MajinArekkusu View Post
    Why does Bran ask for a new master of whispers?

    He himself created basically a surveilance state, where he can see everything he wants in the kingdom.
    I thought he only could see the past?

    Might help to have someone give him a heads up from time to time.

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Just checked, just found entitlement and worry, on myself, not "She'll burn kings landing". 2016.

    The usual of "lizards and fire resistance aren't leadership qualities" and "the slaver cities were left of worse, if that's possible".
    Well that's still like season 6ish. Not quite Robby who knew a genocide was coming all along, but an inkling sure is better than me who didn't consider inherited madness to be a worthwhile plot to pursue until they pushed it up into my face.

  9. #4829
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    The shows are following the book outline. they're going to get to the same point with the same character who did all the same things up until about season 5.

    within those first 5 seasons all the groundwork was absolutely already there for her to be a vindictive petty woman who didn't care about her people who burned countries to the ground for little reason. that was all there.

    The fact that the show missed the landing and didn't properly build to the obvious natural conclusion properly is on the show. But i knew a decade ago she'd be one of the badguys in the end. I never understood why people thought she was legitimate contender or that she deserved the throne. Having a character arc or being sympathetic isn't the same thing as being a goodguy.

    Similarly, jaimie and cersei were likely to always die, if not together, then one immediately after the other, while Tyrion, Brienne and the Stark kids were going to be one of the ones that made out well in the end.

    (For all that the series touts its "anyone can die at anytime" attitude, the actual main POV characters didn't die all that much aside from Ned in the first book and Quentyn Martell. lots and lots of fakeout deaths and cliffhangers, but little actual main character death. And no, Robb doesn't count, in the books he wasn't a POV character. Even Catelyn is still alive in the books.)

    Martin might subvert those things now that the show has done its ending if he ever actually finishes the last two books, and go for full downer ending, but those were always pretty clear story paths, no matter how the tv show mangled it.
    I don't read the books. The show had her like being a protector and destroying evil. As far as th show is concerned her belief in liberating innocent was a genuine thing. A thing that her advisor just had to work around because she didn't want to compromise on that. MAybe in the book it is a pretense and it will be perfect but in the show it didn't make sense for the character. It's something the show wanted to do despite the character not being a plce where she would do so.

    It's like Punisher shotting a regular school of children. There's a way to get there but you have to built the character to this place not just have it happen.



  10. #4830
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    I thought he only could see the past?
    Tyrion: Will you take up the mantle of king?
    Bran: Why do you think I came here, implying he knew everything.

    And he obviously can see everything in the present through warging etc, not only the past. Warg into a rat and spy on everyone you need spying upon.
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  11. #4831

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    Whatever happened to the Valonqar and the Prince that was promised.
    Valonquar was never in the show (the prophecy was only about Cersei's three children dying), and the Prince that was Promised was maybe mentioned three times max, mostly concerning Stannis, so the average show viewer wouldn't even know what that is about.

    In essence, those are just two of the many things that are left for George to properly conclude.

  12. #4832
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  13. #4833

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    Yeah Dany was super obviously going to be an evil queen that would make Cersei look tame.

    A strong, smart, and resourceful woman who we saw pull herself up by her bootstraps, starting out as pawn and having a transformation into a queen. She was sold into slavery, found power in that role, broke free, and then gained power and inspired love and admiration from her followers because she shows concern for them and for innocents. People freely choose to follow her.
    Being sympathetic and having a character arc is NOT the same thing as being a hero or a good person.

    People followed her because she was "freeing the slaves" which is good PR when you're building an army. And because she had dragons. but she was consistently and regularly an AWFUL leader.

    She didn't give a shit about her people aside from conscripting them into her army, didn't listen to her advisors, it was regularly said she was doing everything for her own vanity and personal glory, she constantly burned places to ground, threatened for two years against her advisors that she was going to burn King's landing, and basically every single place she went ended worse off than it was before she got there. THOSE ARE NOT GOOD THINGS.

    No, that doesn't equate to "going to turn batshit insane", that part is the failure on the show to build up to properly. I'm not claiming I always knew it would go exactly like THAT, because that was handled badly.

    But it DOES equate to "misguided, selfish, bad leader, and going to go terribly wrong when she finally gets there." She didn't have to turn into insane person to get to the exact same result of razing the kingdom to the ground and being an awful leader. With her in charge things were obviously going to go bad for one reason or another, just like they did with literally every single other place she conquered. Nothing in her history showed that she would be a decent leader or that she wouldn't wreck whatever she conquered. The exact path to her final outcome wasn't clear, but her overall ending was.

    Aside from all that, her narrative was isolated. She was the only one on her continent, and didn't interact with anyone else in the cast for the first five seasons/books. You can skip her parts of the story entirely until she shows up and the narrative is completely unchanged for 95% of the series.

    'The descendant of the mad king is coming back from hiding with an army and dragons to conquer everyone" is NOT a hero setup, that's an impending threat. sure, if the series had followed her narrative and only hers, she'd be the hero in a standard series. But she was one protagonist among 25, and the only one not connected to anything.And, SHE WAS THE INVADING FORCE WITH DRAGONS. THAT SHE COULDN'T CONTROL.

    Cersei was a POV protagonist too and no one thought she was the rightful winner or someone to actually root for.

    Especially when you have like five Stark POV characters and three Lannisters and a whole mess of people connected to them. That's not a decision any writer or writing team makes. If she'd made it to shore by book/season 2, and had a whole mess of adventures where she met Jaimie and Bran and Stannis along the way, or she didn't have the dragons, that'd be different. But she was always clearly going to be an obstacle, not an actual contender.
    Last edited by Robby; May 21st, 2019 at 03:15 PM.
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  14. #4834
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Being sympathetic and having a character arc is NOT the same thing as being a hero or a good person.
    That's a fair point. I can agree with that. While I don't think the series made it clear that her concern for the women the Dothraki were raping was fake, or that her desire to stamp out slavery was selfish, maybe that's just because I associated her actions more in line with the Starks than with the Lannisters at the time. She was furious when the slavers were massacring children to try to send her a point. But that was just a show for her followers? She acted like a good person and I don't think it was shown very well that it wasn't genuine.

    And while I agree that she possibly left the places she conquered in greater disarray than how she found, although ending a system like slavery is not simple, I thought the point was going to be that simply conquering wasn't actually enough to "break the wheel". So she might not be fit for the throne if she couldn't figure out how to to rule properly. Hence the excitement when she teams up with Tyrion because he was equipped to handle the stuff she wasn't good at. But then all his advice stunk lol
    'The descendant of the mad king is coming back from hiding with an army and dragons to conquer everyone" is NOT a hero setup, that's an impending threat. sure, if the series had followed her narrative and only hers, she'd be the hero in a standard series. But she was one protagonist among 25, and the only one not connected to anything.And, SHE WAS THE INVADING FORCE WITH DRAGONS. THAT SHE COULDN'T CONTROL.
    This, however, I definitely disagree with. In a show that was built on subverting expectations and realism, the POV that was actually supposed to be correct was Robert Baratheon when he was talking about killing her in season 1. Yuck. That was supposed to be surface level analysis that we as viewers knew to be wrong because we spent so much time with her. Someone has to rule, so why not the woman whose birthright to rule was stolen from her? Who else were we supposed to be cheering on to take the crown?

    The point isn't that she needed to be the good guy at the end, but that she wasn't evil. Because I don't feel that was set up and there is a lot of wiggle room between those two points. Like, how many innocent people did she actually kill before she left for Westeros?

  15. #4835

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    Like, how many innocent people did she actually kill before she left for Westeros?
    How many advisors did she have killed? how many people put to the dragon? how many cities did she burn to the ground prior to coming to mainland?

    Season five when she allowed her dragons to eat a man she didn't know was innocent or guilty just because she was pissed. Those are not the actions of a just ruler.

    She killed a LOT of people.

    n a show that was built on subverting expectations and realism
    i hate that people keep going to that. it subverted expectations in that several of the leads were unconventional. A broken boy, a dwarf, an ugly mannish lady, a complete asshole that kills children. unconventional in that the guy you thought was the main character died in the first book, and there were violence and sex things happening on the page instead of off camera. it was more grounded and had actual consequences for things fantasy usually glosses over, and no magic maguffins to vanquish the singular dark one. Based on a history of real wars between nobles than a single fantasy quest.

    But after he killed Ned, his big trick was on the table, and once you know that's his approach, its less surprising when it happens again. The hows and whens can and are shocking, certainly, but that he's willing to suddenly take characters out is now in the cards. Except he doesn't actually do that too much. it's was basically that 'no one ever gets what they want, ever, and if it looks like they're about to have anything nice, it's going to be stolen from them.' Oh, Arya is about to be reunited with her brother right before the Red Wedding? Well something happens to keep her from getting there! oh, Jon has taken full command of the Night's Watch and doing everything right? time for his people to betray him.

    And Martin used the same trick over and over and over and over again. So do series like Berserk. it's a craptastic world and the easy thing to do is to show people suffering and put in a random monster raping someone or some boobs or a man getting flayed alive or something getting a part violently chopped off, and that the world sucks, and that has shock value and sets a tone, absolutely.

    He's a fantastic writer, far greater than i will ever be. but his subversion is almost entirely of the "everything goes bad because this is a grimdark world" and not 'defying how basic storytelling 101 works.'

    if it was really all about defying all expectations every one of the Starks would have been dead by book 2, Dany's brother would have killed her and taken over, dwarf Tyrion going into a real battle would have died horribly, and every lead that died like Brienne and Jon would have stayed dead, so that by season 5 the main cast looked nothing like the cast of season 1.. Instead, we got focus characters and they mostly survive despite all the odds to the end. The broken boy makes his way to the magic crow. The dwarf looking to be awesome gets to be awesome. The dragon lady looking for revenge gets vengeance.

    But that's not the kind of subversion Martin was doing. Actual Main characters largely got plot armor no matter how bad their hardships. Their eventual end path was loosely outlined early on and they followed their course through all their misadventures. And secondary characters died by the dozen. But the leads? follow traditional narrative rules, no real subversion beyond how crappy things become for them along the way. Even someone like Arya who seems to have gone on a wild impossible to predict pathstarted her narrative with "i want to use the stabby end of the sword on people." Could you have predicted she'd become a facechanging master assassin from that? Of course not. But you could guess she'd be the fighter that ended up killing people in someway, that would get good with a sword, compared to delicate Sansa.

    Most of their narrative paths were set fairly early on and didn't really stray from that. That's a lot HARDER to tell on the show certainly who is what because they don't get focused POV chapters with their names at the top, so you don't know Robb isn't a main character while Cat is, but its a clear distinction.


    it's the same thing people throw at Oda all the time. 'anything can happen in one Piece because its so random!" except thats not the case, the world works on structure and internal consistency, and the author is good about laying groundwork and worldbuilding so that its all cohesive. We can't predict what will happen in One Piece next week, because that's the creative adventure part, but we CAN look at the pieces on the board and say what will happen in a year, as long as the author is playing fair.
    Last edited by Robby; May 21st, 2019 at 07:33 PM.
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  16. #4836

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    True Robert B was spot on in his assesment that a Targy child needs to be killed before their devil gene has the time to mature and activate their bloodline limit. Ned was as always waaay off in his children of crazy people can turn out none crazy. Silly Ned

  17. #4837

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Applying modern day morality on Game of Thrones makes everything unfair.
    Of course she's going to seem like an evil character that was built up to be one if we are going to apply that logic.
    There's no way the show did her character justice no matter what.
    If we're going to talk about the books or how seasons 1-5 built her up as an inevitable villain then I have to disagree wholeheartedly.

    Rather, it makes a lot more sense if the intention was that her entire arc was going to end up as a Shakespereques tragedy with clues litter here and there.
    Like Walter White in Breaking Bad. One might argue that you feel empathy for him, that he is the anti-hero and his ending is inevitable. There is no way he would get away knowingly with the suffering he has caused.

    But Danny is a terrible comparison to Walter White because she was never portrayed as an anti-hero in the first place.
    We can pull out pages or scenes and argue endlessly on subtle hints that she was in fact not the good savior we all thought she was, but we can also do the same for the rest of the cast.
    Once you know the end of an arc, a bunch of stuff when revisited seems like seeds that were planted even though that might not be the author's intention.

    Anyone can use an ending point for a character and then go back and justify their actions, twisting the narrative to fit "oh that's how it was all along".

    That's the reason why the people defending her turning is annoying as hell.

    Oh yeah she freed an entire city from slavery, had more resilience than half the characters in the show, convinced a bunch of murderous warriors that listen to no one to follow her, outwitted rather intelligent people, turned a traitor and the most intelligent guy in the series into following her BUT DID U SEE THAT TIME SHE BURNED THOSE PEOPLE THAT DESERVES IT? TOTALLY EVIL! OR THAT HER DRAGONS ARE REPRESENTATION OF POWER CORRUPTS EVERYONE!!! but let's not care about the many other times she held her hand or saved the world from being frozen over bECAUSE DRAGON BLOOD DESTINY LEGACY AMIRIGHT.


    Sure, she's not white but she's not black either.
    Her, like most of the cast of GoT is grey. Which is suppose to represent the morally ambiguous aspect of the series.
    It's the same for the books or seasons 1-5, Danny is never supposed to be the fucking big bad.
    That is why burning the entire king's landing makes zero sense. I'm not even referring to her character arc, I'm referring to the entire overarching theme of the series itself.
    If you think this is a good vs bad show, then we're completely on the wrong topic.

    Just because she's flawed doesn't mean she will not be a good ruler.
    Unless we're going to dismiss Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion as idiots then I guess the conversation ends here.
    She's flawed but she has been portrayed as having a vision that is beyond the people of her time, her "break the wheel" was something that could reasonably turn the world into greater good.
    In today's context, absolute power needs to be tamed and controlled as soon as possible.
    In the world of thrones, absolute power can end all wars and pave a better world but only if used wisely.
    Too much power for one person absolutely destroys which is why she needed the ice part of the song, Jon Snow.
    The narrative allows the possibility for her to turn batshit evil...true but it's distasteful and feels too much like a good vs evil story.

  18. #4838

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Hey, remember the scene where she locked up her own dragons (her children) for supposedly burning a single child? Here you go if you need a refresher on that.



    And yet she burns and kills practically thousands of innocent people just.....because she felt like it because bitch be crazy.

    Quality characterization, this is not.

    Even if Martin always intended for her to be the mad queen, there is no way he had this bullshit simple and quick turn that would make even a Saturday morning cartoon blush from embarrassment. You don't built up a character and showcase how most people want her to rule the Kingdoms and then just quickly make her a literal Hitler and just kill her off.

  19. #4839

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    It doesn't have to make sense cause she's crazy.

    And why is she crazy? Cursed gene pool of doooom.

    Solid writing choices all around

  20. #4840

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Putting aside all of the problems with ep 6 caused by rushing the story, there's one question that really bothers me about the ending:
    Why Bran?

    What miracle did Bran perform that convinced everyone to side with him?
    Why do the southerners even believe that he has powers? (that includes Tyrion)

    The ending just makes no sense whatsoever.

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