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Thread: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

  1. #4681

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

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  2. #4682

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    that still wouldn't do anything because there's still no proof and jon has no support outside of the north ,and again no one in westeros seems to care about succession also even if everyone starts caring about the law jon gave up all his claims when he joined the nights watch (there's no proof that he died and came back to life and that was shaky reasoning for absolving him of his vows to begin with) and even if he somehow gets support and raises an army to overthrow dany she still has superior militarily force (dragon, unsullied , dothraki , iron islands and dorne won't support jon because of succession laws).

    jon being a threat doesn't make any sense really.
    None of the five kings had any proof of Joffrey being a bastard either but here we are.

    A foreign queen vs a homegrown good ol'boy is a hard sell for the foreign devil so i can see this derailing

  3. #4683

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    None of the five kings had any proof of Joffrey being a bastard either but here we are.

    A foreign queen vs a homegrown good ol'boy is a hard sell for the foreign devil so i can see this derailing
    the five kings only had the region they directly controlled supporting them and i already said that jon has support from the north (wich is very depleted right now) also joffrey is way worse than daenerys before she went crazy.

    and she isn't really very foreign either just in exile for a few years. and it wouldn't make sense for the people to care about it to the point that they'll start a war, the person who made the iron throne wasn't westerosi to begin with.

  4. #4684

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    the five kings only had the region they directly controlled supporting them and i already said that jon has support from the north (wich is very depleted right now) also joffrey is way worse than daenerys before she went crazy.

    and she isn't really very foreign either just in exile for a few years. and it wouldn't make sense for the people to care about it to the point that they'll start a war, the person who made the iron throne wasn't westerosi to begin with.
    I think you underestimate the inherent racism of westeros society. She is foreign raised woman and heads a foreign horde and Jon is not. If they had to choose the white northerner with a wang wins 10/10 times, and if the local boy has even a smidge of the same claim to the throne then it isn't even a contest in who is the more popular choice. I mean sure she could burn the entire continent and enslave those who oppose her but she is never going to be their chosen one

  5. #4685

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    I think you underestimate the inherent racism of westeros society. She is foreign raised woman and heads a foreign horde and Jon is not. If they had to choose the white northerner with a wang wins 10/10 times, and if the local boy has even a smidge of the same claim to the throne then it isn't even a contest in who is the more popular choice. I mean sure she could burn the entire continent and enslave those who oppose her but she is never going to be their chosen one
    nothing in the series indicates this in fact the smallfolk seem to be down with anyone as long they're left alone just look at cersei she's a woman , fucked her brother , blew up their st. peter's basilica with the pope and half the aristocracy in it and no one seems to care.

    but this is actually a good idea having her win the throne but becoming increasingly violent because she's not accepted by the people she's supposedly trying to help for reasons outside her control is far better than "lol i'm crazy now" and it could get us back to the politics that made the show good in the first place but that requires actually exploring the culture and characterizing the peasants and smaller lords but i guess that's too hard.
    Last edited by Lord Gaimon; May 14th, 2019 at 08:51 AM.

  6. #4686

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    While Joffrey's (and Robb's/Renly's/Stanis's/Mance's/Balon's) wars had widespread destruction, those were sparced out, Daenerys and Cersei paid up front a ton of blood (and considering how little focus the populace got while Cersei was queen, we don't even know how the populace was being treated)

    The whole wars was an almost comical set of scalations set in motion by little finger, who had his hands on a ton of crucial moments without anyone but the audience knowing (murdering Jon Aryn, setting Cat vs Tyrion, giving clues to Ned, betraying Ned when he didn't sweeten the deal to capture Cersei, getting the Bulk of Renly's forces to side with Joff and organize Margerie's marriage, offing Joffrey, taking Sansa away for Tyrion to take the full blame)

    There are a few others that we still don't know if he did them like sending the catspaw to kill Bran (confirmed by the show only), setting that one Kingsguard to kill Tyrion during the blackwater (heavily implied, as he was recomended to the kingsguard by Jon Aryn), and influencing Joff to kill Ned (as the original plan was just to make Ned be guilty of the coup, and take the black)

    Compared to him Varys's schemes seem quaint.
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  7. #4687
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    All the foreshadowing in the world couldn't make up for the poor handling and the breakneck speed by which all of it occures.
    gets even worse considering there's only one chapter left

  8. #4688
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    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
    When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
    I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.
    .
    Burn Jon. And the golden company. There are so many other burning options. Even Burning the north would make quite a bit more sense. Burning the city after surrender makes her her dad and she's too afraid to be that to do it if not necessary.

    And if that was the plan she would have burn them when they were enemies of the queen not when they were just a bunch of harmeless civilians accepting her rule and begging to be saved.
    Last edited by desa; May 14th, 2019 at 11:06 AM.



  9. #4689

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Burn Jon.
    I wouldn't be surprised if she enters the last episode at least entertaining that possibility. Obviously she couldn't kill him there on the spot, Drogon is not a sniper, the Unsullied and Dothraki would burn along with him leaving her with... well, nothing.

  10. #4690

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    nothing in the series indicates this in fact the smallfolk seem to be down with anyone as long they're left alone just look at cersei she's a woman , fucked her brother , blew up their st. peter's basilica with the pope and half the aristocracy in it and no one seems to care.

    but this is actually a good idea having her win the throne but becoming increasingly violent because she's not accepted by the people she's supposedly trying to help for reasons outside her control is far better than "lol i'm crazy now" and it could get us back to the politics that made the show good in the first place but that requires actually exploring the culture and characterizing the peasants and smaller lords but i guess that's too hard.
    Personally i think there's plenty of moments that drive home how xenophobic and hostile to outsiders the seven kingdoms region is. Wildings are being treated as essentially subhuman, dothraki are deemed savage uncivilized horse people, Dornish are constanly mocked, crannogmen are also deemed to be disgusting swamp people. Hell even betwenn the north and south there is what amounts to hostilities based on not liking outsiders. And here comes Dany and expects true pure blooded lords and retainers to take orders from horse lords and dickless mercenaries from across the sea? Even without the conveniently placed northerner who happens to also be a targaryen but with a dick and an appropriate culture it'd be a hard sell to some place as insular as Westeros

  11. #4691
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Her current leap of logic is "they aren't trowing the doors open for me and my army, therefore they are siding with cersei".
    ...

    The crime of Kings landing population is "not loving your mesiah". Like when the Dotraki, Unsulied and the freedmen who went to their knees when she burned their oppresors.
    But theres a crucial thing missing for that angle to work: Theres zero interaction between Daenerys and the civilians, prior to her murdering them all. She whines beforehand about how no one (in the north, where Jon Snow is a local boy and Arya saved the day) respects her, but she still follows the non civilian-killing plan to a T initially, going after the fleet, the gates, and the battlements, wins extremely decisively...
    She then stares for a bit. And decides "You know what, I'm gonna kill some peasants".

    Theres NO MOMENT where the citizenry disrespect her. No one throws a rotten apple, no one calls her Danny Doo-doo pants, no one refuses to kneel, because she doesn't even ask them to kneel. Theres zero interaction between her and the civilians apart from her murdering all of them, not even so much as someone giving her side-eye to trigger her rampage.

    She follows the plan, targeting military forces only. Obtains an unconditional surrender.
    Beat.
    She kills everyone anyway.
    Last edited by Daz; May 14th, 2019 at 12:01 PM.

  12. #4692

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Yeah, that's the thing with crazy characters, I can argue that in her mind they already had disrespected her, then you can argue that there is nothing in the text supporting that and it's lazy writing, in the end Id agree with the lazy part, but hope that George's version will make sense, as the escalation of BBQs was there.

    Buildup was there, we were missing like 2 steps.
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  13. #4693
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    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her
    Thats circular logic though. Everyones beef is not that Daenerys went overboard, its that Daenerys targeting civilians rather than Cersei was forced and unnatural; you can't use the show itself as a counter for that. "Daenerys was obviously more interested in killing civilians, because the episode had her kill civilians, so it checks out".
    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post

    (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).


    Instead we get a sympathetic death for Cersei Lannister of all things, who dodged any real depiction of what sort of ruler she was, and escaped all consequence for the bombing of the sept. The show was too dead set on wedging Daenerys into the Mad Queen hashtag at the last minute.


    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
    So she decides to become the most hated person in the nation as a counter to Jons popularity? She already singlehandedly won the entire war with a flying nightmare monster, leaving countless charred corpses to fill the streets of Kings Landing - what does she gain by targeting innocent civilians on top of that? Who don't even know why they're being killed? What does she prove apart from being completely unstable?


    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    Jaime became my favorite character by Storm of Swords and Brienne rose to the same level in Feast for Crows, obviously I've been shipping them hard since then, so I really enjoyed their development. It was sweet, nice, made me smile from ear to ear, and still didn't end on a happy tone that would feel out of place.
    As far as I am concerned, it was a perfect development. Specially because now I can have them never going that way on the books without feeling something was missing.
    But if you really liked it, and shipped Jaime and Brienne...doesn't it bother you that it ultimately might not even have happened? That Jaime, one episode after bedding Brienne, dies in a tender embrace with Cersei sying that theres nothing beyond them?

    Honestly, and this is not a dig at you personally for enjoying it, thats what JaimeXBrienne felt like in retrospect: A blatant bit of fanservice, completely at odds with the broader storytelling. Much like Cleganebowl.

  14. #4694

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Personally i think there's plenty of moments that drive home how xenophobic and hostile to outsiders the seven kingdoms region is. Wildings are being treated as essentially subhuman, dothraki are deemed savage uncivilized horse people, Dornish are constanly mocked, crannogmen are also deemed to be disgusting swamp people. Hell even betwenn the north and south there is what amounts to hostilities based on not liking outsiders. And here comes Dany and expects true pure blooded lords and retainers to take orders from horse lords and dickless mercenaries from across the sea? Even without the conveniently placed northerner who happens to also be a targaryen but with a dick and an appropriate culture it'd be a hard sell to some place as insular as Westeros
    well she already has pretty much all the county supporting her except for the parts controlled by cersei so it's not much of a problem.
    aegon the conqueror did pretty well too and he is way more foreign than her in a time where the seven kingdoms were even more insular.

  15. #4695
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    I wouldn't be surprised if she enters the last episode at least entertaining that possibility. Obviously she couldn't kill him there on the spot, Drogon is not a sniper, the Unsullied and Dothraki would burn along with him leaving her with... well, nothing.
    And she would have done that before becoming the mad queen. She knows that's the kind of BS that made everyone band against her father. Killing a lord is classic king securing their rule. Torching a city that surrendered is just telling people she's crazy( and also goes against her messiah need to save the empoverish).

    Danny may have frustrations but up until now she was not just straight up crazy. She had proven capable of reason until suddenly she wasn't. And that Cersei was not her first target provs to me how manifactured the moment was.



  16. #4696
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    What also kills me is that no one in Kings Landing know why they are being murdered. Usually cllective punishement means that people are aware of what cimre they're being punished for, but nope, the new Monarch is just quirky like that!

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    From the goddamn mouthes of D&D themselves

    Quote Originally Posted by GOT showrunners
    “I don’t think she decided ahead of time that she was going to do what she did,” Weiss says about the instant when Dany cracks. “It’s in that moment … when she’s looking at the symbol of everything that was taken from her, when she makes the decision to make this personal.”
    WOMEN BE CRAZY

  17. #4697

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Wow a new low on how Dumber & Dumber interpret a woman character.
    Hope Disney takes the intelligent idea and sacks them up front of their SW project.


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  18. #4698

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Thats circular logic though. Everyones beef is not that Daenerys went overboard, its that Daenerys targeting civilians rather than Cersei was forced and unnatural; you can't use the show itself as a counter for that. "Daenerys was obviously more interested in killing civilians, because the episode had her kill civilians, so it checks out".


    Instead we get a sympathetic death for Cersei Lannister of all things, who dodged any real depiction of what sort of ruler she was, and escaped all consequence for the bombing of the sept. The show was too dead set on wedging Daenerys into the Mad Queen hashtag at the last minute.




    So she decides to become the most hated person in the nation as a counter to Jons popularity? She already singlehandedly won the entire war with a flying nightmare monster, leaving countless charred corpses to fill the streets of Kings Landing - what does she gain by targeting innocent civilians on top of that? Who don't even know why they're being killed? What does she prove apart from being completely unstable?
    I don't think it is a circular logic because there is a difference between she attacking the citizens and she ignoring Cersei, I think those are two different points that complement each other, not the same. People were complaining she attacked civilains without being provoked, I said the point was not answering to provocation or punishing them for their behavior and the fact she also ignored Cersei reinforces at that moment she was not really passing down well-deserved punishments.

    But overall I think you people are missing the most crucial point here: she is mad. You people are like "she should act reasonably or people will notice she is crazy and be against her"... well, like maxterdexter said, that's the thing with crazy people. She is not in a position she can judge things cool headed and take proportional, justifiable, fair action. She may be following a line of thought, but everything is blurred by fear, anger, sorrow and a pinch of paranoia (which is not entirely wrong as the episode heavily suggests Varys was trying to poison her).

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Honestly, and this is not a dig at you personally for enjoying it, thats what JaimeXBrienne felt like in retrospect: A blatant bit of fanservice, completely at odds with the broader storytelling. Much like Cleganebowl.
    I know, that's why I was happy it happened in the series. I got the fanservice I wanted while still possibly avoiding a fanservicey outcome on the books (also they parting ways so he can go back to Cersei adds the tragical twist I require in anything so I can enjoy it). Party!

    (EDIT: But to be honest, the whole thing also works for Jaime as a character.
    His brief affair with Brienne would be the conclusion of the character he was growing to be, the man he should have been, redeemed from all the shit he did and finally allowed to rest. Him leaving her was the call back to reality, he can't delude himself thinking he is a good guy - even if Bran denied him, even if the death through war denied him, he never forgave himself and shouldn't be allowed to go unpunished. Going back to Cersei after Sansa announce her imminent death is him ultimately refusing himself the right to die as a new Jaime. Sure he wanted to be there for her, either to save her or to not let her die alone, but that was also the punishment he found for himself, the end he trully deserved.
    We still need to see how that will work for Brienne, but for him I think it was a great way to close the character.)
    Last edited by .access timeco.; May 14th, 2019 at 01:15 PM.

  19. #4699

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    well she already has pretty much all the county supporting her except for the parts controlled by cersei so it's not much of a problem.
    aegon the conqueror did pretty well too and he is way more foreign than her in a time where the seven kingdoms were even more insular.
    Well support is a fleeting thing. And Jon's shadow lies heavy over her throne. If you leave out military force she loses badly in all other aspects. In order of increasing importance she has a lesser claim, the drawback of being an outsider and not having a penis. And seeing how she decided to go with the fear route i'd assume that she also realizes that the deck is stacked against her and the only means she has at hand is military might. But yeah this could've been a much fuller story being played out if they had given it some time to ferment and bubble a bit rather than the rushed mishmash of random face-turns we got

  20. #4700

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Also, going back to the crypts a little.

    Where do you put the civilian population? Outside the walls were the elements or zombie horde could reach them?
    In the courtyard? the library? the dining hall? the godswood? The watchtowers?

    The crypts were the one place where outside zombies didn't manage to swarm. And honestly, those skeletons shouldn't be able to punch the rocks there.


    Cast a net too wide and you can't pick the nits that matter.

    Like I can see Jaime and Cersei ending like this, but with a very different conversation. Not Jaime going from "I'll sacrifice my honor, and probably my life to save kings landing" to this.

    I can't see Sandor ending like this, dying in a battle to kill something that was already dead, both metaforically and in escape routes.

    Varys? Maybe in a desperate move, not getting "outplayed" by Tyrion's stupidity, but doing something obviously stupid because is the one thing that might work.

    Oh well, this will go dormant soon, and then we'll wait for George.
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