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Thread: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

  1. #41

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Okay, I'm gonna give this one more go before I give up on you ^^

    If Enel, and all therefor probably all Logia users are elemental by default and only turn to a human body when they choose, then why doesn't this work for Crocodile? After all, Luffy defeated Crocodile by preventing him from disolving into sand using some sort of liquid on his fists. This means that Crocodile's turning into sand was part of his Devil Fruit ability, and he wasn't sand by default...

  2. #42

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrich
    Your whole point is build on this argument of Ener sleeping. Sorry but it isn't convincing at all. Why wouldn't Enel be able to control his powers while sleeping? It may not make sense for you, but him being able to control his powers while his heart stopped to beat, hell the whole mantra idea, doesn't make any sense at all either.



    Are you serious? You're just in denial now. If Aokiji was permanently ice, Luffy's punch would have shattered his torso and Aokiji would have came back to his human shape later like when he got crushed by Robin's clutch. Instead, Luffy punched Aokiji's flesh, and then Aokiji created ice from his belly to freeze Luffy's arm.

    Btw, you're saying that people arguing against your opinion have no "proof", but you didn't adress my point about the Luffy/Ener comparison. Do you have something to contradict me or will you just come back with "nu uh, Ener was sleeping"?
    Because you cannot control your bosy while sleeping. And his heart stopped beating, for about 1 second. Didn't mean he was dead. If your heart stops, you still live for a few seconds. So, he used those seconds to restart his heart.

    As I said, Luffy just wasn't strong enough to break through the strongest man in Marine HQ. If Aokiji had let Luffy break him, he would have been forced to let go of Sanji and Zoro, so Aokiji didn't let Luffy break him. Whats so had to see? If Luffy punched Aokiji's flesh, how come Aokiji didn't even flinch, or move, or have any damage happen to him at all. In the manga, you can even see that the area around Luffy's puch was ice. It looks completely different to the rest of Aokiji's body.

    And I did address your point about the Luffy-Aokiji comparision, if it was the bit about how Luffy's body is still Rubber underwater, while Enel wasn't Lightining when he was touched by seastone. If that isn't your point, then I've forgetton it, and can you type it again, please?

    And this isn't my opinion. It's fact that Enel was still Lightning when he was asleep. It's speculation that he can control his power while sleeping. That hasn't bee said, or shown.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by NecRock
    Okay, I'm gonna give this one more go before I give up on you ^^

    If Enel, and all therefor probably all Logia users are elemental by default and only turn to a human body when they choose, then why doesn't this work for Crocodile? After all, Luffy defeated Crocodile by preventing him from disolving into sand using some sort of liquid on his fists. This means that Crocodile's turning into sand was part of his Devil Fruit ability, and he wasn't sand by default...
    ...What? Crocodiles weakness is liquid. It turns him back to a physical form. Just like Oda said in that SBS. Even if Croc took a shower, he would become physical. You don't need standing water, or seastone to make Croc phyical, you just need any type of liquid on him.

    "...Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower."

    That's what Oda said. He also said that DF users can't use their power under the sea, so that's why Enel was phyical when touched by the seastone. The seastone robbed his body from automatically becoming Electricity.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    Because you cannot control your bosy while sleeping. And his heart stopped beating, for about 1 second. Didn't mean he was dead. If your heart stops, you still live for a few seconds. So, he used those seconds to restart his heart.
    Oh ok. You can't control your body while sleeping, yet for some reason you can control it when your heart ceased to beat and you're on a coma. Makes a whole lot of sense. Not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    As I said, Luffy just wasn't strong enough to break through the strongest man in Marine HQ.
    O Rly? While I agree Aokiji may be able to harden ice to some point just like Smoker can make smoke solid, (it is still speculation though, something you accuse your contradictors of doing) you're trying to tell me Nico Robin, a woman who showed obvious discomfort when she had to lift the fat ass on the Skypiea arc using her powers, could do what Luffy, who can punch his way through dozens of feet of solid rock (Crocodile fight) and destroy entire buildings with ease (Arlong Park, W7 during Aqua Laguna) couldn't?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    If Luffy punched Aokiji's flesh, how come Aokiji didn't even flinch, or move, or have any damage happen to him at all.
    You said it yourself; he's the strongest man of the Marine Headquarters. My guess is he got punched by far strongest fighters during his 20 + years of being a Marine. Look what CP9 agents can do with their Tekkai; it's not impossible Aokiji's body works the same way, on an even higher level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    In the manga, you can even see that the area around Luffy's puch was ice. It looks completely different to the rest of Aokiji's body.
    This is true, but only once the punch landed. Look at the very moment the punch connects with Aokiji's belly; there's no ice to be seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    And I did address your point about the Luffy-Aokiji comparision, if it was the bit about how Luffy's body is still Rubber underwater, while Enel wasn't Lightining when he was touched by seastone. If that isn't your point, then I've forgetton it, and can you type it again, please?
    Oh no you didn't. I'll rephrase it then: since being in contact with Seastone and being surrounded by water has the same effects on devil fruits users (it disables the control they have over their powers), how do you explain that Luffy was still rubber when he was underwater during the Arlong Arc while Ener came back to his human, flesh-made form when Wiper used the reject dial on him?

  5. #45

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrich
    Oh ok. You can't control your body while sleeping, yet for some reason you can control it when your heart ceased to beat and you're on a coma. Makes a whole lot of sense. Not.



    O Rly? While I agree Aokiji may be able to harden ice to some point just like Smoker can make smoke solid, (it is still speculation though, something you accuse your contradictors of doing) you're trying to tell me Nico Robin, a woman who showed obvious discomfort when she had to lift the fat ass on the Skypiea arc using her powers, could do what Luffy, who can punch his way through dozens of feet of solid rock (Crocodile fight) and destroy entire buildings with ease (Arlong Park, W7 during Aqua Laguna) couldn't?



    You said it yourself; he's the strongest man of the Marine Headquarters. My guess is he got punched by far strongest fighters during his 20 + years of being a Marine. Look what CP9 agents can do with their Tekkai; it's not impossible Aokiji's body works the same way, on an even higher level.



    This is true, but only once the punch landed. Look at the very moment the punch connects with Aokiji's belly; there's no ice to be seen.



    Oh no you didn't. I'll rephrase it then: since being in contact with Seastone and being surrounded by water has the same effects on devil fruits users (it disables the control they have over their powers), how do you explain that Luffy was still rubber when he was underwater during the Arlong Arc while Ener came back to his human, flesh-made form when Wiper used the reject dial on him?
    A normal human is still alive when their heart isn't beating. Then they die a few seconds after. It isn't instant death. And Enel wasn't in a coma, his heart stopped beaing, and he used his last few seconds to move, and start it up again. That, or his body, being electricity, automatically restarted his heart, due to one is the volts of electricity going throught it, But, I doubt that, so I'll stick to the former, which is much, much more likely, and, pretty much facr, 'cuz Enel wasn't dead.

    She broke him in half, which is strange, as Luffy couldn't do it. Yes. But when she did it, Aokiji showed no signs of resistance, and was as calm and laid back as he always was. He didn't need to stop her from breaking him. But, yeah, this is speculation, but it makes more sense than Aokiji using some sort of Tekkai...And it's not speculation that Aokiji can harden ice. He is ice. The colder ice gets, the harder it becomes. He isn't at one fixed degree all the time, surely. So, he can make himself colder. The colder, the harder.

    CP9 use special techniques to gain the ability to use Tekkai. And I do doubt Aokiji has it. Nothing to say he doesn't, really, and nothing to say he does, but it's not likely. And, no matter how strong he is, he would have shown some sort of sign he was even hit. Luffy can pucnch through iron. Aokiji didn't even move. And he isn't even built, or packed full of muscles, so he couldn't have just tensed up to stop the punch. But anyway, in the very next panel from when Luffy puched Aojiki, it shows Luffy's hand, and it already has ice on it, yet Aokiji's clothes isn't iced up. Because Aokiji sent ice through his clothes? Can't be, because unless Aokiji is touching something, he can't turn it to ice. So his body behind the clothes must have been ice, making it likely that he blocked the punch by turning his body into ice. Yeah, this is specualtion, but it's more likely than him having some sort of Tekkai.

    Okay, underwater Luffy lost control of his body, so he couldn't stretch by himself. Oda says that water takes DF powers away (Like, the person actually using the power. Someone else can activate it, though). So when Enel got touched by the seastone, his power to automatically turn into electricity was robbed of him, and he got hit internally by the reject dial. Luffy and Enels powers are different. Even though they are both permenenant, Luffy power is to become rubber. Enels is to automatically become electicity, create electricity, and control electricity. So, if you take away Luffy's ability to stretch on his own through water, you get what happened at AP. Just with Enel, automatically beoming Lightining is his abilty, so if you take that away, you get the seastone thing. Speculation, again, but, based on all the actual evidence we have, this is the best I could come up with.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Off Topic: Crocodile must really smell since I doubt he'd ever let himself become weakened ^^ XD

    On Topic: Bruce Lee and Houdini could take punches from professional fighters continously while standing still. Any trained armed forces (especially high field rank) has similar training so that the body hardens, body mass/fat reduces and the soldier can survive for longer amounts of time under:
    -Pressure
    -Fatique
    -Hunger/Thirst
    -Heat/Cold

    My point being, since Ao Koji has been a Vice Admiral for over 20 years, and a soldier longer, his body must be extremely ripped, and contain very little body fat. Thus Luffys punch (no matter how strong) he could take while standing still. Not to say he could take a punch while fighting, it does take concentration to take a punch like that, but the main thing is not moving and tightening your muscles.

    Also this:
    O Rly? While I agree Aokiji may be able to harden ice to some point just like Smoker can make smoke solid, (it is still speculation though, something you accuse .... couldn't?

  7. #47

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    (sorry for the double post)
    More fun with pictures ^^ Saturday TV fun house, TV FUN HOUSE~!
    Sorry, but I really .... freezes their arms. Thats all.
    Filler? Have you seen the episode? The context you're using tells me you haven't. Would you like to see it? I can find a youtube link/torrent link. They added one action in between pages, Luffy shattering Aokoji into ice when he flew into the air and then reforming just as quickly to freeze Luffy.

    While yes, the scene wasn't in the original http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav...o&PhotoID=1471
    It didn't add any content that was filler. We already knew Aokoji could shatter, we already knew Luffy is strong enough to break iron with his fists.

    However, and this is a big "HOWEVER" your theory that Luffy punches ice is based solely on this page: http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceMangav...o&PhotoID=1435
    You're telling me you can distrinquish the White of his suit from his ice form? The 2 circles are his suits color and the color of Luffys hand making contact with the suit. The squared box is the single frame where Aokoji's starts turning into cold/ice and it spreads to cover Aokojis entire torso. That bottom circle shows me no "shiny" nor distinquishing ICE looking white color, if anything it looks like....

    In fact if you look at his suit: It always has that wrinkled or w/e you wanna call it effect. It could be because Luffy punched there and wrinkled him, call it what you will, but the suit has the lines. So during that second circled frame in the manga, your entire theory takes base (for Aokoji not Enel) and I just don't buy it, especially since Oda gives tips/suggestions to the anime and they drew a clearer picture of what happened.

  8. #48

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    On his suit, when Luffys hand is FIRSt freezing, in the box with the red circle, there is no ice on Aokiji's suit. You can clearly see that, compared to the one with the box, that Aokiji has no ice on his suit. But Luffy hand was freezing as soon as it touched Aokiji. You can see that, yeah? On Luffy's hand. Meaning that Aokiji had ice under his suit, as soon as, or before Luffy even hit him.
    And even if Oda give tips and suggestions, doesn't mean they always have to follow them, as shown by the recent Bleach filler, with messes a lot of stuff up, or the One Piece opening that spoiled that Robin would join the crew. They can amke whatever little changes they want, as long as it doesn't affect much in the lond run. Ace being with Luffy in Alabasta, for example. Or, Smoker controlling the smoke from his cigars.

    And no, I don't watch the anime, I was basing that statement of what you said, and the screens you posted.

    EDIT: And it did add filler content. The ice spreading did not happen in the manga, therefor it can't be used in an arguement.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    Okay, underwater Luffy lost control of his body, so he couldn't stretch by himself. Oda says that water takes DF powers away (Like, the person actually using the power. Someone else can activate it, though). So when Enel got touched by the seastone, his power to automatically turn into electricity was robbed of him, and he got hit internally by the reject dial. Luffy and Enels powers are different. Even though they are both permenenant, Luffy power is to become rubber. Enels is to automatically become electicity, create electricity, and control electricity. So, if you take away Luffy's ability to stretch on his own through water, you get what happened at AP. Just with Enel, automatically beoming Lightining is his abilty, so if you take that away, you get the seastone thing. Speculation, again, but, based on all the actual evidence we have, this is the best I could come up with.
    Alright this is nonsensical tripe, sorry for wasting your time, I'm done.

  10. #50
    Discovered Stowaway lpzie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldrich
    Alright this is nonsensical tripe, sorry for wasting your time, I'm done.

    I was done with this thread the moment I saw it.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    A logia users default state is human, not their nature state. Why? Because if their natural state is not human, how do they suddenly develop internal organs and bleed? It's highly unlikely that the element they are made up of suddely solidifies into a lung and heart and liver.

    Enel needed his heart beating to stay alive. This was AFTER Wiper removed the keirouseki skies off him. So that means the minute Wiper removed them, Enel should have gone back to being lightening. But he didn't. He needed to jump start his heart. This itself shows that Enel had a normal body after the removal of keirouseki.

    Futhermore, if logia users were nothing but but their element, why would they need a heart to survive? They would be ethereal. He wouldn't need to eat, sleep, drink or whatever. Yet Smoker needs to eat. Aokiji loves sleeping. Ace needs to eat. Elemental people wouldn't really need all that, since the inside of their bodies wouldn't contain organs, they wouldn't have normal bodies like you and me, and so none of the cravings. Their bodies would be composed of smoke/fire/ice/lightening/what-have-you. And if their default forms were their element, how on earth do they get bodies anyways?? They most definately cannot use their powers to create multi-colored bodies and clothes. Unless they consciously decide to turn their bodies into whatever they can, they are regular humans. Otherwise, Aokiji would permanently be a huge pile of ice and wouldn't be able to move.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    ...What? Crocodiles weakness is liquid. It turns him back to a physical form. Just like Oda said in that SBS. Even if Croc took a shower, he would become physical. You don't need standing water, or seastone to make Croc phyical, you just need any type of liquid on him.

    "...Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower."

    That's what Oda said. He also said that DF users can't use their power under the sea, so that's why Enel was phyical when touched by the seastone. The seastone robbed his body from automatically becoming Electricity.
    "Having your abilities robbed" means you can't control your abilities (id est, turn to sand whenever you please), not that your body changes entirely from its supposedly sandy form to a human body. If that were true, Luffy would have turned to non-rubber under water, and couldn't have stretched.

  13. #53
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    I will use my old theory from the Lucci vs. Schichibukai discussion (yup, it went off track) And saythat IMO, logias are -by default- neither 100% physical or element.
    They have bodies, where the specifically targeted areas turn into elements, while the rest seems "normal", and fully capable of interacting with physical objects.
    As for "Enel using his mantra to turn into lightning" and Doing it instinctively, I don't really buy it. Croc had an entire gum gum Gatling pass through him - are you saying he anticipated every last one of those blows?
    Same with Ace being shot multiple times from all directions, while delivering a letter.

    As for the "organs" orgument: I could propably buy it, if this wasn't OP, wheere seperating your head from your body or turning into some swirling sand with no organs whatsover =/=death.

    My guess is: 100% Element is only when they WANT (Amal Enel, Croc dodging blows), and physical is only when they're FORCED.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Physical is default, puh-leeze. I'll bring up the pub scene again - since that's the most obvious.

    Enel was never asleep.

    Logias are probably in human mode all the time, except during battle or "dangerous" circumstances, where they either take human form with an otherwise elemental body (when croc is hit and turns to sand, this is what happens. we know he definitely doesn't look like sand, yet we can be sure he cannot time his body so perfectly to turn to sand the moment he is hit, along with that being dangerous if he is slow. thus, i believe it is a mode of looking like human but being interchangeable to element automatically if struck. this mode of course requires concentration to maintain) or full elemental (enel in thundergod mode).

    When Logias are in battle, they always stay in the above 2 forms, either one. The only way they can be hit is to have a circumstance where their energy form cannot possibly exist, ie sand not existing as sand, rather as mud, which is not covered in the power's reach, when it is wet. Or, as electrical energy in rubber (chemically impossible to conduct electricity in rubber). In which case, the element portions are forced to revert to flesh. Or with a forced high temperature, where ice can only exist as water. Of course, the powerful logias' elements won't succumb to a bit of it; crocodile absorbs all the moisture to a certain extent to render himself invincible and I'm pretty sure Ao Kiji will need a heck load of heat before his ice powers cannot overpower it.


    That's what I think, and I do believe it's very plausible. So, if you're going to continue this discussion, respond to this, and not to other repeat posts. If you want to use Luffy's argument about him being rubber all the time, I advise you to read this thread: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=4507

    Here, I cover the discrepancies in form between devils fruit types.

  15. #55
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Wait, I'm confused. So you say that logia users CAN be surprised, because they're only in the "Mix" mode in dangerous circumstances?

    Only you state in the other thread, which I very much agree with:

    What I think is that a Logia will be invulnerable to any attack unless they are unable to switch into their respective element. For example, with water, sand becomes mud, but Crocodile isn't a mud-man, he's a sand-man...

    Logias are only invulnerable to attacks and only when their Logia forms aren't presented with a counter. This is because attack or no, as long as it does not upset the Logia powers, no damage will be taken by them.

    So can they be surprised or not?

    (And I still think the bar scene was a gag - like when Nami and Usopp can beat Luffy to a pulp with blunt blows)

  16. #56

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by The Daz
    Wait, I'm confused. So you say that logia users CAN be surprised, because they're only in the "Mix" mode in dangerous circumstances?

    Only you state in the other thread, which I very much agree with:

    What I think is that a Logia will be invulnerable to any attack unless they are unable to switch into their respective element. For example, with water, sand becomes mud, but Crocodile isn't a mud-man, he's a sand-man...

    Logias are only invulnerable to attacks and only when their Logia forms aren't presented with a counter. This is because attack or no, as long as it does not upset the Logia powers, no damage will be taken by them.

    So can they be surprised or not?

    (And I still think the bar scene was a gag - like when Nami and Usopp can beat Luffy to a pulp with blunt blows)
    I'm going to bring in movie 4 here: Gasparde is/was a logia type df user, but Luffy's attack managed to make him bleed when he was unprepared. I believe Oda does look through the movies, so if he really meant for the logia type to be forever in the element, he would immediately tell them it isn't allowed for that. Even though he does not write the movies, I understand he is involved in it.

    Thus I think they can be surprised. What you quote from the thread is what I think in the circumstance of a serious battle, where the opponent is looking for means to harm the df user and the df user is trying to prevent it.

    I didn't include the mix-form theory in that topic, it's just one of my explanations for the fact that some people like to argue that "he" just "turns to sand/ice/pantys". Besides, it would be heckuva inconvenient to be permanently something.

    Now I'd like to add something about the being permanently an element: if anyone was permanently smoke/sand/lightning/ice, they wouldn't be able to a) hold an object (seastone club, enel's staff) b) exert force (as seen for white blow, desert blades etc.) c) be corporeal, with all those external forces around them like wind, rain, rocks on the ground.

    Therefore I conclude with conviction that the default form is human, and the form in which they ready themselves for a hit in is half-half, or when serious, full elemental.

  17. #57
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    But in the half-half form they're able to hold objects as well -take Enels staff or Crocs' cigar for instance. That's why it's 50-50, after all; being element and physical at the same time. I just can't see why it's impossible for this to be the default form.

    As for your Gasparde argument: Yes, Oda does influence the non-canon stuff. But He makes designs, he doesn't direct it. It's still the realm of taking lotsa' rumble balls in a row with no side effects, Zoro cutting steel before alabasta, extreme OOCness etcetera.

    A thing I though of just now...this may be stretching my interpretation, but Oda said this:
    Now, in Crocodile's case, "water" is the weakness of his
    very powers, so his abilities are robbed even in the shower. But it's not like there are
    enemies around when you take a shower, so I'd bet he would take them even with his powers
    being blocked.
    My point is: If Crocodile is ambushed in the shower he's at a disadvantage bacause of the water, not the ambush. Or something like that.
    Last edited by Daz; May 12th, 2006 at 10:24 AM.

  18. #58

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Phlemingo
    Physical is default, puh-leeze. I'll bring up the pub scene again - since that's the most obvious.

    Enel was never asleep.

    Logias are probably in human mode all the time, except during battle or "dangerous" circumstances, where they either take human form with an otherwise elemental body (when croc is hit and turns to sand, this is what happens. we know he definitely doesn't look like sand, yet we can be sure he cannot time his body so perfectly to turn to sand the moment he is hit, along with that being dangerous if he is slow. thus, i believe it is a mode of looking like human but being interchangeable to element automatically if struck. this mode of course requires concentration to maintain) or full elemental (enel in thundergod mode).

    When Logias are in battle, they always stay in the above 2 forms, either one. The only way they can be hit is to have a circumstance where their energy form cannot possibly exist, ie sand not existing as sand, rather as mud, which is not covered in the power's reach, when it is wet. Or, as electrical energy in rubber (chemically impossible to conduct electricity in rubber). In which case, the element portions are forced to revert to flesh. Or with a forced high temperature, where ice can only exist as water. Of course, the powerful logias' elements won't succumb to a bit of it; crocodile absorbs all the moisture to a certain extent to render himself invincible and I'm pretty sure Ao Kiji will need a heck load of heat before his ice powers cannot overpower it.


    That's what I think, and I do believe it's very plausible. So, if you're going to continue this discussion, respond to this, and not to other repeat posts. If you want to use Luffy's argument about him being rubber all the time, I advise you to read this thread: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=4507

    Here, I cover the discrepancies in form between devils fruit types.
    What about the Pub Scene? I've already said why Smoker was phyical, dunno why, or if Ace was, seems more like a plot hole than Enel to me.

    Enel was asleep. What were you reading? Chapter 263, and 264. reas over them. And by the way, he said, "For five minutes, I will just sit here. I will not dodge your attack (turning into electricty to avoid being hit is dodging), nor will I strike back (Yet when that cyandian had his staff in Enel, electricity was still running down the weapon, and electicuting him slightly. He was in pain from the Electricity, even though Enel wasn't doing a thing)." And when Enel woke up, he didnn't even know that the Cyandian was still trying to attack him. Shows that he was:

    1. Asleep
    2. His mantra doesn't work when he was asleep
    3. Couldn't have been "Concentrating" to turn in Lightning, when he didn't even know he was being attacked.

    So, whats the counter to this? This ain't specylation, this time. This is what happened. This is what Enel said, and did.

    And this pretty much replies to your whole post, so I won't counter the rest if it.

    And about the organs thing, if what you say is true, the moment they turn into Nature, they would die from organ failure, or they would live forever, seeing as they won't age, or have any need for organs.

    EDIT: And whatever happens in the movies are filler. Just like the Dragon Ball movies. In fact, in one of the movies, it had Zoro cutting a steel chain, or something, when we all know he hasn't cut steel since Alabasta. And in the upcoming movie, it shows Luffy using Gear Two, which is impossible, seeing as he developed Gear Two just after the Aokiji fight, and since then, the Straw hats have not taken a single intermission, and even if they had, in the upcoming movie, they have no carpenter with them (Franky). Movies don't mean a thing to the manga. You can't use them for an arguement. Just like using Anime Filler, you can't use it.

    Now I'd like to add something about the being permanently an element: if anyone was permanently smoke/sand/lightning/ice, they wouldn't be able to a) hold an object (seastone club, enel's staff) b) exert force (as seen for white blow, desert blades etc.) c) be corporeal, with all those external forces around them like wind, rain, rocks on the ground.

    Therefore I conclude with conviction that the default form is human, and the form in which they ready themselves for a hit in is half-half, or when serious, full elemental.
    They can just easily make that part of their body physical, or else they wouldn't even be able to walk. And that's the same as thier clothes surviving when they become Nature, except that makes even less sense. And Sand can exert force, seeing as it is something you can actually touch, unlike Lightning and Smoke. Smoker being able to catch people with his body does not make sense, but hey.
    Last edited by Kenechi; May 12th, 2006 at 10:21 AM.

  19. #59

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    So I read the linked topic and the newer posts and you've gotten me thinking.
    Logia doesn't exactly mean oracle (well it does) but more commonly it translates to "words." In the bible when God was creating the world he said the Lord (the son, Jesus) was the Word of God. In Christianity Jesus was 100% divine and 100% human.

    it is possible that Logias are 50% of each or 100% of each, based on this, especially if Oda wanted to add that kind of an element to it (the divine biblical referance). He certainly has added some Christian symbols to his context, but also Buddhist and other religious symbols.

    However I'm still not 100% convinced that their default state is not physical. All evidence seems to point to them being physical, and quite frankly, if they weren't physical then they'd be invinsible. In Enels case, regardless of whether Luffy is rubber or not, he would be in Lightning form and it would travel around Luffy rather then enter his body and shock him. In fact every time someone struck Enel they would be electricuted or shocked just like when you touch a staticly charged metal or remove a plug that has melted/fused onto the outlet socket. You get shocked because the lightning is able to pass through you, or if you wear gloves, the lightning passes around you and doesn't bother you.

    But that doesn't change the lightnings properties, lightning/electricity continues to exist as electricity and continues to travel as such.

    My point being Luffy would continue to be immune to Enel, but Luffy wouldn't be able to harm him, While Luffy is immune to lightning, that doesn't affect Enel's immunity to physical attacks any, it's not like trapping him in a bottle, there is absolutely no change in the physical makeup of the electricity, it would simply pass through/around Luffys body.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Regarding kairouseki-bullets and DF-users

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenechi
    "For five minutes, I will just sit here. I will not dodge your attack (turning into electricty to avoid being hit is dodging), nor will I strike back (Yet when that cyandian had his staff in Enel,
    1. Asleep
    2. His mantra doesn't work when he was asleep
    3. Couldn't have been "Concentrating" to turn in Lightning, when he didn't even know he was being attacked.
    It would be ridiculous for someone that was
    -physical
    -had the ability of electricity
    -position of God
    To not act as Enel did in that situation, he has to show he is God to keep the fear instilled in the people thus he can say oh I won't dodge but obviously he would have turned into electricity to keep the people believing there is no way to defeat him and thus keep them in line.

    There is no proof his mantra doesn't work when he's asleep stop posting that as fact. If anything there is proof of the opposite, because the little girl had mantra going on as a baby and it kept her from sleeping. (what's her name Aisa?) Thus don't use Mantra being off as a defense.

    One final thing:

    Aside from the fact that it is a common term to show boredom with someone "Oh you're so boring I fell asleep" I'd like a trustworthy translator to confirm the Manga translation. The anime one is done by KF and I know they're very good in their translations, the manga came from the msn group.

    HOWEVER, Enel was awake, and fell asleep THUS, They did not attack him in his sleep, they attacked him in his concious awakened state of mind, and he fell asleep (from boredom) and conciously falling asleep is VERY different from being attacked in surprise while asleep. This shows he had total control over the situation and no doubt that he would be safe even in his sleep. Which can then be translated any number of ways: He turned his body electrical before falling asleep, he kept his mantra on, he didn't really fall asleep and was just playing with him.
    Either way, falling asleep and being attacked in your sleep are two tottaly different things, and I think you've been thinking of the latter as a defense which this situation is not.
    Last edited by Refii; May 12th, 2006 at 10:40 AM.

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