View Poll Results: Is Yamato joining the crew?

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Thread: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

  1. #81
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Kira XXIII View Post
    Find it hard to believe.
    Why?

    Do 8000 more strong warriors not exist? We still got giants and a couple more groups to meet and islands to go.


    They literally started calling him God Usopp and saying things like: I will follow you until the end of days. They are literally followers, of Usopp and Luffy. That's why the lie fits so well. Because they didn't exchange sake cups like they usually do, it is the fleet captains drinking the sake: doing what they want -> follow Luffy/Usopp.
    This doesn't have much to do with what I'm saying about Usopp getting 8000 followers. If anything all of that points to Usopp being able to do it again not that he can't or won't.



    Yes. And what do you mean "only", 8000 troops is quite big of a number.
    The idea Usopp can only gain 2400 more followers is limiting and pretty silly. Extremely arbitrary.



    I am saying that instance was a perfect chance to introduce such a character. I took that scene as Oda showing all the people that helped Yamato. Samurai, Ace and that Beast pirate.
    I mean that's okay if you think it was a perfect chance.

    I'd agree if I thought Yamato's flashbacks were done or Kaido wouldn't get one or if Yamato wasn't going to interact with Kaido again.

    Regardless, I don't think Luffy will be making new siblings with Yamato or anyone else.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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  2. #82
    Arf. (ᵔᴥᵔ) FelRes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.
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  3. #83
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I never said Yamato has an obligation. I said the opposite, actually, about Yamato and Oden. What I commented is that people have double standards when they think this not similar to Oden, who also didn't have any obligation. You, for example, are saying that Oden skirted his duties, but that's just forcing it upon him despite the fact that the dude always renounced the politics of Wano since a young age and then became a pirate. So the same moral reasoning (which is not mine) could be aplied to Yamato, unless all that you can take into consideration for people's responsability is lineage.
    Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them. You can say they were forced upon him but that doesn't change anything. They were still duties he chose not to fulfill.

    I don't get how you can compare that to Yamato who isn't from Wano and the reason for his ties to the country is cuz Kaido brought him there as a kid.

    That moral reasoning can not be applied to Yamato cuz Yamato was not in the same situation as Oden. Its pretty obvious Oda has put Yamato in the exact opposite situation. He's pursued the acceptance of samurai, wants to be one in his own way while making it clear since being a child he wanted to leave and go explore the world before coming back and helping Wano.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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  4. #84

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them. You can say they were forced upon him but that doesn't change anything. They were still duties he chose not to fulfill.

    I don't get how you can compare that to Yamato who isn't from Wano and the reason for his ties to the country is cuz Kaido brought him there as a kid.

    That moral reasoning can not be applied to Yamato cuz Yamato was not in the same situation as Oden. Its pretty obvious Oda has put Yamato in the exact opposite situation. He's pursued the acceptance of samurai, wants to be one in his own way while making it clear since being a child he wanted to leave and go explore the world before coming back and helping Wano.
    I don't see any argument in your post for why Oden had this obligation. It's just stated as a fact that doesn't need to be justified. I don't know why.

    Since I don't understand why you're saying that, I have the trouble of having to suppose the reasoning behind your assumption, and I can think of two different justifications: (1) Oden's responsability is due to his surname and nothing else, (2) the responsability comes from the ethical axiom that nobody can put their personal desires over social security. Both are obviously arbitrary as any other moral postulate, so you're free to pick your poison, or to take the opposite stance and agree with me that not even Oden had an obligation. As for me, my non-monarchic self disagrees with the first option and, regarding the second option, it assumes an universal duty burdened by all people, and it applies to Yamato just as to everybody else as long as Wano is under threat. It's valid, but it's not my point of view.

    Btw, as a side note, Yamato may not have been born in Wano, but Yamato was raised in Wano since he was at least 3 years old, maybe even less than that, which is more than enough to inform nationality according to most legal systems, which are all based on philosophical concepts of identity. Besides, Yamato is completely a part of that culture, and willingly seeks to be recognized as a samurai. More than that, Yamato is the son of the effective ruler of the country for the last 20 years, so he's definitely not some sort of outsider unrelated to Wano. In fact, if you take into consideration that responsability comes from the surname, Yamato has a big debt to pay back to the people of Wano.

  5. #85

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    Oden definitely had an obligation and he chose to abandon them.
    By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?

    (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  6. #86

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    I've been curious for a long time as to what the moral of Oden's story was, especially as Oda sees it, since there are many that expect Yamato's journey to become Oden means learning from Oden's mistakes. Some of the "mistakes" I've heard include:
    • Leaving Wano in the first place: he abandoning it.
    • Not staying when he returned with Toki: he knew something was wrong and left anyway.
    • Taking Orochi at his word and dancing instead of fighting immediately: maybe he could have won when Kaido was less prepared.
    • Trying to kill Kaido alone, only counting on his retainers and only at the very end.
    • Generally trying to shoulder everything himself, and not relying on others.
    It's easy to point to any of these and say "this was his big mistake, it wouldn't have gone so wrong if not for that"... but also, the alliance wouldn't be on the cusp of defeating Kaido if he didn't do any of these. If he didn't leave Wano either time, Roger wouldn't have found the One Piece. If he didn't try to kill Kaido, then Momonosuke and the others wouldn't have been sent away, which is what enabled them to enlist the help of the Worst Generation (particularly Luffy). I can't say if he wouldn't have succeeded in killing Kaido before all the dancing, but he only danced because he wanted to save the people in front of him, so I can't see that as his great mistake.

    The way I've been thinking recently is: Oda doesn't see any of these as mistakes, but just actions of a noble but flawed and foolish figure. I don't think Oda wants us to think it's bad to be flawed and foolish, especially considering what Luffy is like. However, maybe Oden's responsibility was to endure Kaido's rule until Joyboy arrived so they could fight together to open Wano. He died leaving this duty unfinished, and this is what Yamato has been doing in Oden's place. I find this idea satisfying because Yamato chose to accept the duty because he was inspired, rather than because of his blood or a fruit he ate when he was hungry. I expect that the return of Momonosuke and the events that are currently transpiring will mean Momonosuke can take on the burden of responsibility for Wano, and Yamato will be free to pursue his own adventure however Oda decides. I do also expect some kind of payoff for the guardian deity DF thing, though... maybe something like Yamato carrying the will of the people of Wano and fighting with Joyboy against the WG.
    Last edited by Roosta; October 18th, 2021 at 07:22 PM.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?

    (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).
    It's extremely unhealthy in Yamato's case, since his "obligations" come with abusive baggage.

    Oden was a beloved lord meanwhile and didn't really need to leave besides a vague sense of crampness.

  8. #88
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by FelRes View Post
    Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.
    Maybe either Wang Zhi or Silver Axe?

  9. #89

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    If you take that as an absolute rule then it'll remain that. Even after Yamato joins no matter your view on the power scaling of the strawhats.
    It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.

    This is a totally ridiculous power scaling fan made created problem lol.

    The answer is the precious tradition won't be broken.
    It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.


    It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.
    I don't think anyone should be worried about "Yamato will disrupt Monster Trio dynamic" thing.

    From my point of view, Zoro and Sanji will fight the second and third strongest enemies like before, even after Yamato join the crew.

    Heck, Zoro and Sanji might even surpass Yamato's strength at the end of Wanokuni, who knows?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny B. Decent View Post
    Maybe either Wang Zhi or Silver Axe?
    Either of them would be pretty dope, man.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by FelRes View Post
    Yamato's so obviously in that it's not even fun to speculate on anymore. Would be more productive to speculate on BB's final commander.
    I hope it’s a new character

    I can’t think of any characters we already know that would join the Black Beards Crew except maybe Urouge or if Oda really wants to fuck with expectations Gin

  12. #92

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    It's extremely unhealthy in Yamato's case, since his "obligations" come with abusive baggage.

    Oden was a beloved lord meanwhile and didn't really need to leave besides a vague sense of crampness.
    Yeah, but look at this from another perspective.

    Oden is accused of being selfish because he left responsibilities for his dreams, and in the meantime, Wano fell to a danger Oden wasn't aware at first, and only barely aware of. Later, he chose to not know more about it because he knew he wouldn't be able to leave.

    But people expect Yamato to leave Wano because he dreams for the wider world, denying that he may also have responsibilities as "Oden" and "Wano's guardian", even now that we know the opening of Wano will endanger the country throught the WG's actions. Yamato is the strongest defender Wano has (he was able to fight Kaido alone while all the Nine Red Scabbards together couldn't). Wouldn't Yamato also be selfish by leaving?

    One may say that Oden had an obligation to Wano, while Yamato hasn't. But that obligation was created solely by blood. As a person, Oden wanted to be free of it.

    In this "freedom versus duty" dichotomy, I can see the story going either way. Maybe Yamato finds acceptance and reckognition in Wano and becomes a samurai like he hinted he once wanted to be. Or maybe he feels any duty he had has been fulfilled and he's totally free to go out and be a pirate to his heart's fulfillment.

    The problem is that this arc is a samurai story, and Yamato represents Japan itself. In samurai stories, duty is often a very important theme, the core of honor itself. With how much I think Yamato's fondness for Wano and the samurai have been increasedly hinted lately, I am expecting that duty and self-fulfillment throught it may become a greater drive for him in the end.
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  13. #93
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    I don't see any argument in your post for why Oden had this obligation.
    You stated it and acknowledged it yourself though. I'm not even sure why I have to make an argument for that.

    Or were you using that stance to try and apply it to Yamato?

    It's just stated as a fact that doesn't need to be justified. I don't know why.
    If you're not pretending Oden wasn't the son of the shogun, made a daimyo, came back wanting to open Wano's borders and made a deal with Kaido/Orochi, then fought Kaido then I'm not sure we're even talking about the same story.

    Oden was told of his duty and he decided not to do it. That's the story. If you think it wasn't an obligation, okay but I don't see why it wasn't.
    Btw, as a side note, Yamato may not have been born in Wano, but Yamato was raised in Wano since he was at least 3 years old, maybe even less than that, which is more than enough to inform nationality according to most legal systems, which are all based on philosophical concepts of identity. Besides, Yamato is completely a part of that culture, and willingly seeks to be recognized as a samurai. More than that, Yamato is the son of the effective ruler of the country for the last 20 years, so he's definitely not some sort of outsider unrelated to Wano.
    Yamato as we've seen grew up idolizing Oden, admiring samurai, hoping to be one, accepted by them, and then was chained up on Onigashima for 20 years.

    Yamato at the age of 8 declared he would come back to Wano (assuming that he would leave) and help free Wano according to the prediction/prophecy Oden made. Yamato chose to do that. This is already a fact stated in the story. There's no reason to make up a reason to say Yamato is responsible for his father's actions. That's like a made up thing to throw out there when Yamato has already committed himself to freeing Wano. If the story was Yamato feels he needs make up for everything his father has done then story would be that.

    Now to what actually happened, Yamato never actually got to leave so his new plan was to help beat Kaido, free Wano, and then leave.

    Orochi has been the ruler of Wano the past 20 years. Yamato is not his son. Orochi has been the face Wano leadership the past 20 years. That's why CP0 secretly meets with him.

    Calling Kaido the effective ruler of Wano rigs false. He's the power behind Orochi but from what we've seen he's remained a pirate and his base is in Onigashima. He got his weapon making factories and thats all he cared for. He didn't rule Wano. He couldn't be bothered with it.

    Even now, when his plan is move his pirate island on top of the capitol and make Wano a lawless land for pirates is to still make his son shogun to handle the actual ruling of the country.
    In fact, if you take into consideration that responsability comes from the surname, Yamato has a big debt to pay back to the people of Wano.
    This doesn't make sense.

    I brought up Oden being the son of the shogun and his duty to talk about what is expected of him. He chose not to adhere to that until much later in life. He abandoned his duties.

    Yamato as Kaido's son (especially since no surname has been stated) doesn't have any debt to pay back. The reasoning isn't whatever the parents do the children have to pay for. The story specifically tells you that's how you make a characters like Orochi and Kanjuro. I'm not even sure how you reached this conclusion when compared to Oden and his father.

    Just because your father did something bad to a group of ppl doesn't mean you as their child owe a debt to those ppl. Really not sure what guideline your following.
    Last edited by Zik; October 18th, 2021 at 08:28 PM.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
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  14. #94

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Boombalaga View Post
    I don't think anyone should be worried about "Yamato will disrupt Monster Trio dynamic" thing.

    From my point of view, Zoro and Sanji will fight the second and third strongest enemies like before, even after Yamato join the crew.

    Heck, Zoro and Sanji might even surpass Yamato's strength at the end of Wanokuni, who knows?
    So you expect Zoro and Sanji to master CoC-based attacks while also gaining the additional strength of a mythical zoan-based DF by the end of this arc?

  15. #95

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    The problem is that this arc is a samurai story, and Yamato represents Japan itself. In samurai stories, duty is often a very important theme, the core of honor itself. With how much I think Yamato's fondness for Wano and the samurai have been increasedly hinted lately, I am expecting that duty and self-fulfillment throught it may become a greater drive for him in the end.
    Yamato's actions over the past 20 years show that he would be willing to give whatever it takes to defend Wano, so learning to give up on adventuring to continue doing what he's been doing for 20 years doesn't really seem like a real character arc. I get the feeling he just believes that opening Wano and unleashing the samurai on the world will mean that it won't need its strongest fighters sitting at home waiting to fight.

  16. #96
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    By that logic, isn't Yamato also being selfish by denying his lineage's expectations?
    Depends.

    Then again, you're kinda presuming what his lineage's expectations are.

    Are you going solely by what Kaido said? I wouldn't really take his word for it. Feel like there's some pain behind those statements that'll be revealed in a flashback.

    But if we later on learn that all oni have this tradition or law to be a part from humanity and feel they are superior to humans, cant be friends with them at all, etc. then yes Yamato is being selfish and is ditching his obligations as an oni (assuming Yamato is 100% oni cuz if he's not Kaido's even more of a hypocrite).

    But I don't see anything wrong with that. If anything it'd further cement Yamato as the black sheep of his ppl (that admired humans; samurai) just like Chopper was or how a few other strawhats were

    Its not like I said Oden abandoned his duties and obligations in Wano and therefore he is a bad person. Sometimes being selfish is the right thing to do.

    Most of the strawhats were a bit selfish. You gotta be to achieve your dreams sometimes.
    (Yeah, I know I'm forcing it a bit, but, in essence, you acuse Oden of being wrong for following his dreams rather than the expectations placed on his bloodline).
    Yeah this 100% false.

    I never said Oden was wrong for following his dreams.

    You just made that up for some reason.

    Please don't put words in my mouth or try to warp my stance.
    Last edited by Zik; October 18th, 2021 at 08:32 PM.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
    Last.fm

  17. #97

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roosta View Post
    Yamato's actions over the past 20 years show that he would be willing to give whatever it takes to defend Wano, so learning to give up on adventuring to continue protecting Wano doesn't really seem like a real character arc.
    It depends a lot on what the story chooses to focus on, really. If he actually earns for companionship and acceptance, but saw himself unable to achieve it due to his father's ideas ("you are an oni, the samurai will never accept you"), then finding out that he earned to be a samurai and can indeed mix with the people of Wano will be his character arc.

    With the WG threat now being revealed, I feel that plot point could very well be resolved by the people of Wano not wanting Luffy to get involved, but to defend their country themselves. Cue Yamato chosing to side Wano in this and the scene of the two guardian deities, the dragon and the wolf, coming to teach the invaders a lesson.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Zik View Post
    Please don't put words in my mouth or try to warp my stance.
    I'm not putting words in anyone's mouth, I am, however, challenging opinions, and that's a perfectly valid arguing technique.
    Wano predictions: There will be 5 acts; All Straw Hats will get fights, some in Act 4; Big Mom Pirates will arrive; Carrot will have her moment, but won't join; Yamato will be a Kouzuki samurai and Wano's Guardian; Shanks will visit Luffy in Act 5; Next arc is Mary Geoise.

  18. #98

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    Yamato is the strongest defender Wano has
    Wrong, Luffy is.
    His title as Yonko / Pirate King will take care of that, won’t it?

    "There will be an answer, let it be."

  19. #99
    Omne ignotum pro magnifico Zik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by BobLoblaw View Post
    It's not my rule. It's the standard that's been set since east blue. Arguments can be made about Robin and Franky being strong, but by the time they officially joined, Luffy, Zoro, and Zoro were still considered the three strongest and always faced the three strongest opponents. The question is does that standard get broken after 20+ years.
    No. You literally just made up the tenets for a rule and just called it "tradition".

    All I'm saying is your assumptions about Yamato won't and don't have to break the rule regardless of what you think.
    It's not fan made. We don't decide who the SHs face during an arc. Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji usually face the three strongest. Arlong Park, Arabasta, Enies Lobby, and FI. Then the split ups started happening and now that they're all back together, Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji are again taking on the three strongest.
    Everything about your power scaling analysis of why Jimbe isn't stronger than Zoro or Sanji is ridiculous. It doesn't make sense or is even consistent with the facts about Jimbe and his fights.

    And again like I just said the answer is your precious tradition won't be broken.

    Monster trio is taking on top 3 strongest characters (Big Mom aside) and Yamato hasn't defeated anyone to fit in that ranking. All he's done is knock out a tobi roppo, attack another, and stall a yonkou for a bit.

    It's totally on you if you want to pretend that means he's stronger than Sanji and Zoro. Same way its on you for thinking Jimbe (easily) beating a weaker tobi roppo opponent means he's weaker than Sanji and Zoro.
    Zik Of The 7 Swords: Vision? What do you know about my vision? My vision would turn your world upside down, tear asunder your illusions, and send the sanctuary of your own ignorance crashing down around you. Now ask yourself, Are you ready to see that vision?
    Last.fm

  20. #100

    Default Re: Next Straw Hat Crewmates (Vol. 9 - Yamato vs. The World)

    Quote Originally Posted by Deicide View Post
    With the WG threat now being revealed, I feel that plot point could very well be resolved by the people of Wano not wanting Luffy to get involved, but to defend their country themselves. Cue Yamato chosing to side Wano in this and the scene of the two guardian deities, the dragon and the wolf, coming to teach the invaders a lesson.
    I see where you're coming from better now, but Oden did also put emphasis on Wano being ready to work with Joyboy when he appeared.

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