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Thread: Chapter 955: ENMA

  1. #181

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Zoro is being rayleighfied for some time now, some might even say he got Law'ed. It's not a very exciting development, but it's development. It came with a heavy price since he's now lacking that fun and carefree attitude he had pre-TS (remember Tarzan Zoro?), but the plans for him are obvious.

    That said, I'm locking in my prediction that Zoro will face and beat King in this arc. At this point taking down someone of that calibre is simply needed to keep his role as the feared tough guy of the crew, and it actually has to happen before Jinbe joins and before we're heading into the endgame. It's not so much about taking down a powerful opponent, but someone with a mega fat bounty known to the world. There may be other enemies of similiar strength in Wano (like Foxface) but they don't have the necessary world-wide street cred.
    Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
    Last edited by uniaka ikuzakas; September 16th, 2019 at 09:10 AM.

  2. #182

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    Zoro is being rayleighfied for some time now, some might even say he got Law'ed. It's not a very exciting development, but it's development. It came with a heavy price since he's now lacking that fun and carefree attitude he had pre-TS (remember Tarzan Zoro?), but the plans for him are obvious.

    That said, I'm locking in my prediction that Zoro will face and beat King in this arc. At this point taking down someone of that calibre is simply needed to keep his role as the feared tough guy of the crew, and it actually has to happen before Jinbe joins and before we're heading into the endgame. It's not so much about taking down a powerful opponent, but someone with a mega fat bounty known to the world. There may be other enemies of similiar strength in Wano (like Foxface) but they don't have the necessary world-wide street cred.
    Zoro finally gets to the country of swords and he is not fighting a swordsman? Doubt it.
    Unless King is a hybrid sword user like Kaku was (and even then, Oda does not get to his version of samurai fight)...

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post
    Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
    And crush them, not struggle and get stronger in the process like Luffy does, so false comparison.
    Rayleigh is Zoro with smarts, but it is clear Oda is drawing painfully obvious parallels.
    I would hold my horses on that, itīs apparent Zoro is going to turn Enma black this arc, it will not mean he will surpass Shanks, not even in swordsmanship alone.
    Bullet is non-canon, and Oden apparently stood no chance against Kaidou more than 20 years ago, Garp literally called Rayleigh a legend, who in his old age could still match an Admiral.

  3. #183
    Stowaway w/ 18k posts Kishido's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Stop bringing Bullet in.

    BTW Sanji will be scopperfielded

  4. #184

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    King is a swordsman. His sword is even clearly very detailed, so it's not just for show like Queen's generic looking swords.
    Last edited by Blissed; September 16th, 2019 at 09:30 AM.

  5. #185

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post

    And crush them, not struggle and get stronger in the process like Luffy does, so false comparison.
    Rayleigh is Zoro with smarts, but it is clear Oda is drawing painfully obvious parallels.
    I would hold my horses on that, itīs apparent Zoro is going to turn Enma black this arc, it will not mean he will surpass Shanks, not even in swordsmanship alone.
    Bullet is non-canon, and Oden apparently stood no chance against Kaidou more than 20 years ago, Garp literally called Rayleigh a legend, who in his old age could still match an Admiral.

    It still shows what level of enemies oda gives to zoro, struggle or not. We don't really know how the battle was, all we know is that oden wounded kaidou. If it was a battle of kaidou, calamities, orochi surprised attack oden when he and his men were not ready, like how luffy and allies plan to surprise attack beast pirates at fire festival and get them drunk first, idk. Not like it's implied rayleigh would stand a shot with kaidou, getting tired after a few minutes with admiral

  6. #186

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    Of course I can accept other outcomes, but won't do so without discussing what bothers me with fellow fans. You don't get to tell me there isn't a clear difference in Sanji's treatment now as opposed to Zoro and Luffy's, doesn't matter that fighting is their only real role in the crew.
    Of course there is a difference in treatment. The whole debate here is about how much should anyone bother with it... and that's why I made that argument about supposing that Sanji is not a "monster trio" anymore and blablabla. Actually, all my arguments are about it, lol, like pointing out how he still makes his way into being relevant to the story despite the lack of remarkable strength feats. I even recall talking about the my opinion that the writing for Zoro has become lazy since the time skip, but that many people doesn't care as long as he is still kicking ass, which just helps to point out the current priorities of the majority of the fandom.

    But helping Kinemon is not something only Sanji could do. I first brought up the matter while contrasting 2 of Sanji's skills; cooking and fighting. I see users pointing out he's a SH because he cooks and I can point out there might not be SH any more if he wasn't such a good fighter. Or such an intelligent individual.
    So it was something that not only Sanji could do?! The way I see it that was an attitude that fits Sanji more than most other Strawhats, but whatever. Are we now disregarding what the characters do in the story because others could have done it instead? That doesn't make any sense to me, because what matters is what happened. And fights are mostly just as arbitrary, btw.

    Like it or not, grand majority of problems in OP are solved with fighting. And if they aren't, our protagonists proceed to fight harder.

    I feel Sanji has less impact on the plot not only because he's not fighting. Both Luffy and Zoro have had quest lines in this arc. Sanji doesn't have one as of yet. He's just participating, like rest of SH.
    Like it or not, a lot of problems in OP are actually solved without fighting all the time. Furthermore, most of the secondary fights are not relevant for the plot, and exist only as self-purpose standout moments for the side characters.

    We should not predetermine a restrictive list of ways that characters can have an impact on the plot, since this will only blind our ability to see beyond that. We constantly see them interacting with the story in different ways, or helping with different narrative demands, or fleshing out the colors of a conflict with their ideals, and it's up to us to pick up on those moments instead of dismissing them. WCI is a good example of that once again, not only because Sanji was at the center of the drama from beginning to end, but because he was constantly helping with different obstacles that were in the way... and yet all that some people can see is that he didn't have a big fight to show off.

    Not all characters will be at the forefront of the story each arc (with the exception of Luffy). Sanji was a huge part of WCI, so there is no need to have a side quest of his own in Wano too. That said, Sanji got more attention than most other Strawhats because of his clashes againts Page One and Drake and the entire raid suit stuff. The guys who deserved more attention now were Robin, Franky, Usopp, Chopper, but unfortunately the Strawhats are being sidelined. Zoro obviously is set to be one of the stars of Wano.

  7. #187

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by theackwardstation View Post
    We should not predetermine a restrictive list of ways that characters can have an impact on the plot, since this will only blind our ability to see beyond that. We constantly see them interacting with the story in different ways, or helping with different narrative demands, or fleshing out the colors of a conflict with their ideals, and it's up to us to pick up on those moments instead of dismissing them. WCI is a good example of that once again, not only because Sanji was at the center of the drama from beginning to end, but because he was constantly helping with different obstacles that were in the way... and yet all that some people can see is that he didn't have a big fight to show off.
    I felt like I was dangerously close to having a similar mindset before WCI happened. That arc really helped serve as a firm reminder for me that the crew can contribute and stand out in big ways without having 1v1 fights. Like for example, this is the arc that made a lot of people appreciate Brook a lot more, even calling him the MVP of the arc, despite not having a proper fight.

    I still want and expect them, especially for this particular arc since fighting is the whole point compared to WCI, but I'm certainly no longer as pressed about it these days overall.

  8. #188
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Zoro finally gets to the country of swords and he is not fighting a swordsman? Doubt it.
    Unless King is a hybrid sword user like Kaku was (and even then, Oda does not get to his version of samurai fight)...
    How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
    Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.

    And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.


  9. #189
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Personally, I want to see more of the other crew members fight more then Zoro or Sanji. Like could Franky handle someone like Page One? I mean, we're getting damn close to the main stage and I worry the other crew members can't handle Yonkou elites.

  10. #190

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
    Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.

    And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.
    Spoiler:
    also denjiro if he joined kaidou and is not kyoshiro

    So far zoro's story in wano is with shogun, komurasaki/daughter of oden, yasu, the sword he got from komurasaki that said she would kill orochi if she could, but gave her sword to zoro instead because she… can't.
    Last edited by uniaka ikuzakas; September 16th, 2019 at 10:26 AM.

  11. #191

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    I think at the apex there will be some plan to distract/weaken Kaido (which will be primarily Luffy's task, and potentially the other supernova), and that the only way to actually kill him (or maybe they don't actually kill him, but can incapacitate him, at least... since he's been beaten many times before, just not killed) will be a suped-up final attack from Zoro and Enma that does more than just scratch Kaido this time. Maybe even during the battle, in desperation, Enma awakens as a black blade.

    The involvement of Big Mom in all of this throws a real wild-card into everything, though. I could see her doing potentially anything, considering her pragmatic nature. She's 100% in this to get Luffy, and will manipulate Kaido however she wants (and already has).

    I don't know why, but I don't see the Zoro and King fight being any more likely than him vs. anyone else. Oda has purposefully been somewhat subverting our expectations turn after turn since Whole Cake Island. I mean, Luffy and Zoro vs Hawkins? Uh? Luffy wielding sword (poorly)? And I don't think he HAS to fight another swordsman... but goddamn is it getting frustrating that we haven't had a high-level swordsman fight with Zoro yet in the land of swordsmen... But I must be patient... Even if seeing Asura make Jack his beetch briefly was neat, I'm ready for the climax to hit, and it looks like it's coming pretty soon.

  12. #192
    Stowaway w/ 18k posts Kishido's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Zoro vs Kaidou and Luffy vs Big Mom

  13. #193

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Remember when OJ announced they were going to close and we worried their users would come here and turn every thread into Zoro x Sanji discussions? The irony.

  14. #194

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperade View Post
    I don't know why, but I don't see the Zoro and King fight being any more likely than him vs. anyone else. Oda has purposefully been somewhat subverting our expectations turn after turn since Whole Cake Island. I mean, Luffy and Zoro vs Hawkins? Uh? Luffy wielding sword (poorly)? And I don't think he HAS to fight another swordsman... but goddamn is it getting frustrating that we haven't had a high-level swordsman fight with Zoro yet in the land of swordsmen... But I must be patient... Even if seeing Asura make Jack his beetch briefly was neat, I'm ready for the climax to hit, and it looks like it's coming pretty soon.
    Aside from Luffy fighting the big bad, the only other Strawhat that has a semblance of consistency regarding who they fight is Zoro. As in, he typically is the one to fight whoever the 2nd strongest opponent is, or the swordsman of the antagonist group. Sometimes they're one and the same (Kaku), as we're seeing with King. (I'm not counting Big Mom)

    What makes things a little tricky is that he's been given setup to fight Orochi and/or Kaido. For Orochi, Zoro says he can't forgive him and that he will definitely avenge Yasu. For Kaido, Enma is hyped up as the only sword that has wounded/scarred Kaido.

    But IMO King is still seemingly the most appropriate choice for a full-fledged 1v1 fight. He's presumably Kaido's right hand, he's a swordsman, it works. The only other potential alternative as some have pointed out is Kyoshiro, but that's a big question mark given how we don't have a good grasp on how strong he is, or what his true allegiance is just yet. It's also entirely possible that Zoro does fight King, but also finds the time to play a role in fighting Kaido and/or Orochi as well.

  15. #195
    Stowaway w/ 18k posts Kishido's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    I am more interested who Law and Kidd will fight.

  16. #196

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    If King is a highly skilled swordsman, then I'm all for him vs Zoro.

    Zoro hasn't been tested at all since the 2 year time skip. Pica was barely a challenge for him. Hyouzou was a joke.

    Zoro needs a serious challenge, and King would be that challenge.

    Though it raises the question if Oda wants him to face a top tier yonko commander, before he faces Shiryuu who is clearly someone for Zoro to face 1 day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kishido View Post
    I am more interested who Law and Kidd will fight.
    Kidd vs Queen imo

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post
    Zoro tends to take guys like monet, hyozo, pica. Even luffy had to take on the warlords and cracker before he moved on to katakuri that is the equivalent of king in the big mom pirates in the previous arc. And rayleigh looks more like a combination of nami, sanji, jimbe rather then zoro. And the black blades show shanks and rayleigh are not proper swordmen like mihawk. Like how some fans used to think rayleigh was previous WSS or something. He even uses legs like sanji. And now we also know bullet was above rayleigh from the former roger pirates, at least in terms of strength. Maybe even Oden.
    Not having a black blade doesn't mean anything.

    Shanks was a rival to Mihawk, and Shanks is of the 4 Emperor's.

    Whitebeard's weapon was of the 12 supreme grade blades, it wasn't black.

    Rayleigh was clearly a skilled swordsman, but he wasn't exclusively a swordsman it'd seem unlike Oden.

  17. #197

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Kidd vs king that tortured kamazo, queen plague doctor vs death surgeon Law. And sanji vs perospero sure fits well, based on how he was interested in the RS and was the one that captured germa but sanji saved them. BM maybe has now all the raid suits but not the best one, sanji's stealth black. And if pedro died because of peropero and makes sanji look guilty because he was there to rescue him, now at least sanji will avenge pedro. And getting like 800milion Bounty for beating peropero is more likely then beating calamity that all have billion or more and would make sanji jump into 5th yonkou's bounty range.
    Last edited by uniaka ikuzakas; September 16th, 2019 at 11:12 AM.

  18. #198
    Stowaway w/ 18k posts Kishido's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    As long as Jack will be fought by Sulong Neko and Inu I'm fine

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    But who will fight Smoothie? And Big Mom?

  19. #199
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post
    Spoiler:
    https://i.imgur.com/wVAZoub.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/xjOtuDf.pngalso denjiro if he joined kaidou and is not kyoshiro

    So far zoro's story in wano is with shogun, komurasaki/daughter of oden, yasu, the sword he got from komurasaki that said she would kill orochi if she could, but gave her sword to zoro instead because she… can't.
    Oh yeah, Smoothie vs. Zoro. How could I forget that possible and very likely pairing.


    Smoothie: Pirate Hunter Zoro! I've heard of your exploits. Mama wants your head for some yet to be revealed reason!

    Zoro: Is that so *licks sword*

    Smoothie: Such killing intent! Are you actually one of those people who dare to hit a woman? That would be a super rare personality trait, especially among New World pirates!

    Zoro: What can I say, I don't like to slap a bitch, but I will she gets out of line

    Exposition mooks:
    Woaahh!

    Smoothie:
    Well then, draw your weapons (This is bad....!)

    Smoothie: Juicy-fruit flying slash!

    Zoro: Sunatchiii!!


  20. #200

    Default Re: Chapter 955: ENMA

    Quote Originally Posted by uniaka ikuzakas View Post

    It still shows what level of enemies oda gives to zoro, struggle or not. We don't really know how the battle was, all we know is that oden wounded kaidou. If it was a battle of kaidou, calamities, orochi surprised attack oden when he and his men were not ready, like how luffy and allies plan to surprise attack beast pirates at fire festival and get them drunk first, idk. Not like it's implied rayleigh would stand a shot with kaidou, getting tired after a few minutes with admiral
    No, it shows the level of opponents the Strawhats were confronted with period until now, which is why this arc is an escalation of that.
    Zoro has always fought the second strongest when the Strawhats are granted straight individual fights, even in Dressrosa that was not different, or Fishman Island, only that the second strongest did not challenge him at all.
    They were onesidedly massacred, as Kinemon put it, so itīs pretty obvious if you ask me.
    He also did not stand a chance against Kizaru, but at old age he could stand his ground and implied he could do much more, now after not having fought for 20 years...
    Itīs pretty clear, the dude who fought against Roger equally, Garp, emphasized how special Rayleigh was and still is, no need to dillydally around it.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabra View Post
    How does your version of a Samurai fight look like? Does it stop being a Samurai fight if the swordfighter is half dinosaur? Or if he uses other weapons apart from the sword (like a fire breath or something)?
    Like, imagine he would be fighting Fujitora. Would that be a Samurai fight despite Fuji summoning meteors left and right with some gravity crushes here and there? My first reaction would be: hell no, what has that to do with swordsmanship. But then again, Fujitora is literally Zatoichi, who was technically not a samurai, but still a swordsman through and through.

    And with all that said, Zoro's options would be narrowed down to Kioshirou. No other high ranking sword guy around as far as I can tell. So it's either him or King, considering that he wears a fancy looking Katana.
    Oda assimilating the traditional samurai fights in OP version, similarly to how he did it with Zoro vs Ryuuma.
    So yeah, Zatoichi with extra moves is fine since we do not know and understand about the techniques anyway, but he brings everything else to the table (personality, cane, appearance, behavior), a half dinosaur feels out of place in that, at least thatīs my sentiment.

    With Oda really pushing Zoro as a Ronin/Vagabond type dude, and the emphasis on swords and samurai ethics, i think it leads to him fighting an opponent who fits exactly that, might be totally wrong though and Oda does not care about it.

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