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Thread: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

  1. #141

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Monquito View Post
    I mean, com'on now. Usopp negative characteristic is useless 99.9% of the time, and only works with 0.1%(Perona) and thats pretty much enough for the author to keep it forever.
    You're looking at pretty much the same scenario with Sanji, as long as it works sometimes, is in perpetually.
    Usopp's cowardice is useless basically all the time! That's why he had the chance to grow and become a lot more confident throughout the series. It hasn't been removed entirely, as it's a defining character trait, but you can tell he manages his fear better (save for a brief backslide in mid-Dressrosa) than he did at the start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sengokusgoat View Post
    If being too kind is a non-flaw, then why refusing to hit women is? Is there any fundamental difference, as far as being inconvinient goes, between always feeding those who are hungry, even if they'll try to kill him afterwards, and never hitting women, even if they're trying to kill him?

    And Sanji *knows* that women can and will take advantage of him. He just doesn't care. If I recall he told Viola something like 'a real man believes a woman's lies'.
    Broadly, I'm considering the refusal to fight and the idolisation and pliability to women as all parts of the same glaring weakness. I think the difference is that even if a man turns on him after being fed he can still defend himself from the man. There's a final line of physical defence he can still capably resort to if the kindness of offering food isn't disarming enough. His weakness for women doesn't really leave the same last resort when it backfires on him in most scenarios. His kindness also wouldn't drive him to, say, tell off another crew member for defending themselves, as he did when Zoro fought Tashigi, or essentially leave an ally for dead as his refusal to fight Kalifa did for Robin and his refusal to fight Monet did for the G5 Marines.

    And as for the last part, that's my point exactly! He doesn't care! He knows this puts him and risk, and worse, puts the rest of the crew at risk and yet he makes no effort to change it! It's frustrating too see it ignored when other members of the cast have made satisfying arcs out of reducing the flaws that did or could have made them a liability. (And he said that to Chopper about Robin at Water Seven, for the record.)

  2. #142

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    It won't be adressed as a fault because Oda doesn't consider it to be one.

    Sunkist will go to his grave never having face kicked anyone but men

  3. #143

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Funny enough, I posted an entire thread on this very topic (Sanji’s stagnant character growth) last week on Reddit.

    I think we can infer a few things from how Oda has decided to characterize Sanji:
    1. While Sanji's principles are admirable, his stubbornness is not
    2. Sanji tends to be one of the biggest doubters on the crew when faced with odds he considers unbeatable
    3. Sanji takes action out of fear and it leads to poor consequences for his friends
    4. Sanji's weakness towards women may literally get him killed
    5. Sanji hasn't taken serious strides towards his dreams like the rest of the crew because his ambition (haki) is weak
    6. Sanji is self-sacrificial and often self-loathing
    7. Sanji adopting Germa tech was the first major moment of growth his character has shown in years, but his bad habits have not ended
    8. Sanji will need to face a bigger reality check than the one he received in WCI

    Check out this cover spread Oda did. Aside from the obvious Fire Luffy foreshadowing, Sanji is looking at his hands. I think there’s a strong possibility he might lose them (cyborg hands Sanji)

  4. #144
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    SANJI MORALITY OVERVIEW

    Hated super-science eugenics supervillain family who dismissed Sanjis non-combat related dream and mistreated him due to his unworthiness as a super-science souped-up Battle Asset to the point of denying his existence causing Sanji to completely disavow them, provides self-made man Sanji with a supervillain branded super-science costume -->I can use this for a minor advantage in a brief scuffle! COOL!

    Beloved father figure tells Sanji not to smoke for the sake of his cooking, the lifelong passion of them both --> LOL who cares

    Beloved father figure makes nonsense statement that he won't employ female chefs because wouldn't be able to beat them-->I WILL OBSESS OVER THIS MOMENT AND GRAFT IT INTO MY PSYCHE TO THE POINT THAT I WON'T FIGHT BACK AGAINST WOMEN TRYING TO ACTIVELY MURDER ME AND MY FRIENDS

  5. #145

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    Usopp's cowardice is useless basically all the time! That's why he had the chance to grow and become a lot more confident throughout the series. It hasn't been removed entirely, as it's a defining character trait, but you can tell he manages his fear better (save for a brief backslide in mid-Dressrosa) than he did at the start.



    Broadly, I'm considering the refusal to fight and the idolisation and pliability to women as all parts of the same glaring weakness. I think the difference is that even if a man turns on him after being fed he can still defend himself from the man. There's a final line of physical defence he can still capably resort to if the kindness of offering food isn't disarming enough. His weakness for women doesn't really leave the same last resort when it backfires on him in most scenarios. His kindness also wouldn't drive him to, say, tell off another crew member for defending themselves, as he did when Zoro fought Tashigi, or essentially leave an ally for dead as his refusal to fight Kalifa did for Robin and his refusal to fight Monet did for the G5 Marines.

    And as for the last part, that's my point exactly! He doesn't care! He knows this puts him and risk, and worse, puts the rest of the crew at risk and yet he makes no effort to change it! It's frustrating too see it ignored when other members of the cast have made satisfying arcs out of reducing the flaws that did or could have made them a liability. (And he said that to Chopper about Robin at Water Seven, for the record.)
    Well, it's not like he actually lets women kill him. He's willing to block attacks as we saw with Kalifa and now Big Mom.

    I'm not saying it's not a flaw, so much as that's it's never been portrayed as something that should be fixed within the story. Nobody has ever seriously called him out on that (at least not anyone whose opinion should matter). Even when Nami sorta criticized it in Ennies Lobby she basically praised him at the same time. So expecting it to change is...quite hopeless. Sanji is not any more likely to hit a woman than Zoro is to stab someone in the back. Of course, you're free to dislike that all you want, just like anything else in the story, but it is how it is.

  6. #146

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    I also see Sanji's blindly sticking to this principle as a flaw but it's pretty clear the way it is portrayed in the manga that Oda doesn't see it that way.
    Sanji not kicking women no matter what what will never have any real negative consequence in the story because we're supposed to think Sanji is so cool for it. *shrug*

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    Check out this cover spread Oda did. Aside from the obvious Fire Luffy foreshadowing, Sanji is looking at his hands. I think there’s a strong possibility he might lose them (cyborg hands Sanji)
    Or that Sanji will use them outside of the kitchen, maybe with a sword in Wano?. This could kind of fit in with using his Germa technology, thematically.


    Sanji hasn't taken serious strides towards his dreams like the rest of the crew because his ambition (haki) is weak
    This seems like a weird statement to me. Sanji going along with Luffy seems to be the only way he can take a stride toward his dreams. He also trained his cooking and body during the timeskip as a way to bolster the crew, as well as learned both of the most basic forms of Haki.

  8. #148

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    SANJI MORALITY OVERVIEW

    Hated super-science eugenics supervillain family who dismissed Sanjis non-combat related dream and mistreated him due to his unworthiness as a super-science souped-up Battle Asset to the point of denying his existence causing Sanji to completely disavow them, provides self-made man Sanji with a supervillain branded super-science costume -->I can use this for a minor advantage in a brief scuffle! COOL!

    Beloved father figure tells Sanji not to smoke for the sake of his cooking, the lifelong passion of them both --> LOL who cares

    Beloved father figure makes nonsense statement that he won't employ female chefs because wouldn't be able to beat them-->I WILL OBSESS OVER THIS MOMENT AND GRAFT IT INTO MY PSYCHE TO THE POINT THAT I WON'T FIGHT BACK AGAINST WOMEN TRYING TO ACTIVELY MURDER ME AND MY FRIENDS
    Now I want a subplot of Sanji quitting smoking.

  9. #149

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Or that Sanji will use them outside of the kitchen, maybe with a sword in Wano?. This could kind of fit in with using his Germa technology, thematically.
    Facts. My brother brought this up with me last night; Judge does mention training Sanji in swordsmanship in ch. 833.

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    This seems like a weird statement to me. Sanji going along with Luffy seems to be the only way he can take a stride toward his dreams. He also trained his cooking and body during the timeskip as a way to bolster the crew, as well as learned both of the most basic forms of Haki.
    Sanji also attacked Luffy out of fear in WCI. Judge also seemed surprised that Sanji would actually attack his own father. Sanji often goes against his own crew and is the first person to doubt them.

    I'm pretty sure the reason Zoro hates Sanji is because Sanji had the gall to shit all over Zoro's dream of becoming the world's best swordsman the first day they met. He's often the first to say something is impossible.

    Sanji often compromises on his goals and morals. On Fishman Island especially, where he could have spent time researching the All Blue (as Sanji was a voracious reader in his youth, leading to him learning all about Devil Fruits, Cooking, Noland, etc). Instead he gallivanted around with mermaids. Click on the link to that reddit post I made; I have plenty of screenshots from the manga illustrating what I mean.

    Sanji's haki (ambition) also has paled in comparison to Vergo, Doflamingo, and others.

    And bear with me here (this is something I just hypothesized in the gym 20 mins ago; haven't actually tried to see if it's possible), but readers might be able to measure the strength of one's ambition through DON moments. Here's an equation:

    H = Dn - dn

    edit: alternatively, it may be H = Dn + .5dn

    H = Haki
    D = ドン (DON) panels (ドドン works as an additional multiplier)
    d = どん (don) panels (どどん works too)
    n= # of moments

    The "DON" moment as an indication of a character's willpower and credibility, while "don" panels are indicative of will without strong credibility. Try this out and see what you find. Tbh, I haven't attempted it but I get the feeling it can give you a great estimate of the strength of one's ambition (haki).
    Last edited by gyuukarubi; October 3rd, 2019 at 08:12 AM.

  10. #150

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    I would apply this to most of the characters in One Piece. I strongly disagree with the fact that Usopp is braver than he used to be

  11. #151

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    1 of the laziest things to do in Wano was Oda having Zoro get lost after being on the Komachiyo together.

    Being able to hit women is considered growth? Woooow

  12. #152

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    1 of the laziest things to do in Wano was Oda having Zoro get lost after being on the Komachiyo together.

    Being able to hit women is considered growth? Woooow
    Being able to hit evil persons no matter their sex, yes.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post

    You're misinterpreting my issue with Sanji. It's not that idolising women and treating like they're too fragile to fight is too sexist or outdated for me, it's that Sanji is a flat character and Oda has shown no interest in having him confront his most prominent flaw. And it is a flaw, it keeps holding him back and making him a liability to the crew. As I said above, it keeps getting used against him in important conflicts, and the only time the narrative has forced him to think on his feet and work around his hang ups was the fight with Bentham in Alabasta. Every other time he's lucked out by having someone else take over the fight or the woman who was playing him turned out to be good all along.

    Now, One Piece isn't exactly known for its character arcs, but other members of the crew have noticeably grown throughout the story. Zoro's pride and "if you get between me and my dream i'll make you kys" attitude were flaws established in the opening chapters. He's since put Luffy's dream before his own and thrown his pride aside to train under Mihawk. He hasn't changed fundamentally as a character, but he has worked to improve the traits that might have made him a problem for his friends in the long run. Usopp learning to manage and push through his cowardice and insecurities was a character arc. He still has those traits, but he got the opportunity to work on them until they weren't holding him or the crew back like they used to. Nami has become much more willing to part with her money for the greater good. Robin has opened up and come to trust her friends to have her back. Even Luffy has grown as a leader and changed his conflict management based on his experiences through the years. But Sanji... aside from the non-flaw of sometimes being too kind, the biggest thing that's gotten in his way is his weakness for women, and not only has he not worked on it like other members of the crew, it's gotten more pronounced as time went on. And if the "Year of Sanji" arc with the female main villain and the honeypot plot wasn't the time to have him rethink how he balances his personal convictions and the good of the crew it's probably not going to happen.

    I don't hate Sanji or anything. On my first readthrough, before it became apparent how permanent his issues were, he was among my favourite Strawhats. Now, it's just disappointing every time Oda chooses to confirm he's not going to grow or change or improve himself in the same way other prominent members of the crew have. I also don't need him to rush in and beat up every female villain; even just gaining the awareness that women can and will manipulate him, call out the femme fatale trying to do so and tagging out immediately for a more qualified member of the crew. (Because like there's a whole essay to be written on the delicate balance that should be struck between not treating women as too fragile to ever be in a real fight and creating things that might be taken as a positive depiction of or justification for domestic violence against women, which remains a big issue in a lot of societies. There's no obvious right answer, and the right answer is certainly not "just show more women being beaten up." It's a complicated topic!) But yeah, I'm not a hater or anything. I don't think characters have to be pure or even likeable people to be good characters, I just think Sanji has some wasted growth potential in this area.
    Thanks for the well-articulated reply! Ok, I can agree with the angle that this character flaw of Sanji, as you call it, often endangers both his own as well as the crew's survival, and thus he needs to work and improve on it. I did indeed misunderstand where you are coming from and that your point of view was more because you felt Sanji's treatment of women needs to change because it didn't agree with your own moral values.

    As others have already said, I think the 'problem' is that Oda simply considers standing by your strong principles, even if they may be dumb, dangerous, antiquated, etc., ultimately to be a respectable character trait. Someone aptly compared it to Ace just not being able to walk away from someone badmouthing Whitebeard, even if it meant his death. I think another good comparison is Bellamy keeping on fighting for Doflamingo even after he has discovered that Doffy couldn't care less about him and tried to have him be assassinated by Dellinger. If I remember correctly, all of these instances were met with annoyance and anger towards those characters here on Arlong Park, so apparently this trait of standing by your principles even if they are stupid and dangerous isn't admired or respected around here in general. I would be pretty interested how Japanese fans regard these flaws.

    Anyway, I do think Sanji's other main character 'flaw', i.e. being too kind + his pride as a cook leading to him feeding enemies even if they will be a danger afterwards is very similar, yet I don't see anyone demanding that he'll abandon this flaw as well. You tried to handwave that by saying that, well, at least he can defend himself afterwards, but I don't think that is generally true. Him feeding Don Krieg and his crew back in the Baratie arc really would have screwed Sanji, Zeff and everybody else on the Baratie over if Luffy hadn't been there. Sanji is strong, but I think it was clear that back then, the cooks would have ultimately lost if it hadn't been for Luffy. So this flaw can absolutely have dire consequences for the people he cares about - yet should it be the right thing to do to just throw away your moral values if they might lead you into trouble? I just don't agree that this line of thinking is where character growth should lead us to - certainly not in One Piece. Sure we had Zoro throwing his pride away in order to help his Captain and crew, but I don't think this is inconsistent - Usopp similarly had to suck up his pride and apologize to Luffy Post-Enies Lobby, so Oda clearly does think that there's such a thing as misplaced, or maybe selfish pride. It should also be noted that pride and principles are not exactly the same. Zoro may be a prideful character, but it has never been established that bowing down to someone and asking for help goes against his strongest principles.

    Similarly, Usopp overcoming his cowardice is also an unfair comparison. Being a coward has nothing to do with Usopps principles, after all - it's simply a personal weakness. I also remember that one of the big messages that Sanji himself imparted on Usopp in Enies Lobby, after losing to Kalifa and then saving him from Jabura, was that nobody needs to be able to do everything as long as you have friends who can help you out. While Usopp is also constantly growing stronger, him still being weaker than most of the other Strawhats and thus unable to beat the really strong enemies is nothing he should feel bad about - his stronger friends can do that for him while he can accomplish other things to help them in turn (as in that case, being such a great sniper that he could save Robin in time from miles away). Why can't it be the same for Sanji? He's clearly an asset to the crew in many other ways - why can't he preserve his personal principles while his friends take over to do the one thing he can't?

  14. #154

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    That video was effing awesome.

  16. #156

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    You know one thing Sanji has gotten better at? Respecting women who aren't super hot. Just compare his interactions with Kokoro to Chiffon or Shinobu.

  17. #157

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Kokoro was more about the mermaid stuff rather than kokoro being ugly.

    Just like the oversimplification of "sanji being homophobic or transphobic" in Iva's queendom, he has been an asshole to them, and has a super mode powered by the experience, but that is product of the horde of people that chased him for two years, this one sits on Oda's lap, that the entire queendom population was treating Sanji like he treats women, and he learned nothing from it. Except "hells memories"
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  18. #158

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    I hope to see Page1 again :(
    Sanji wasted this fight as always.
    UnrevealedVegapunk/Ryokugyu/Loki/Rocks/Im-san/S.Gaban
    IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley
    UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan
    DFSpider/Wind/Metal/Wood/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

  19. #159

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Kokoro was more about the mermaid stuff rather than kokoro being ugly.

    Just like the oversimplification of "sanji being homophobic or transphobic" in Iva's queendom, he has been an asshole to them, and has a super mode powered by the experience, but that is product of the horde of people that chased him for two years, this one sits on Oda's lap, that the entire queendom population was treating Sanji like he treats women, and he learned nothing from it. Except "hells memories"
    Sanji doesn't really go around chasing women and trying to force them to spend time with him against their will.

  20. #160

    Default Re: Volume 94 Predictions/Discussion

    Can someone translate the question about the 2 tsurus

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