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Thread: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

  1. #11601
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    I really hope the budget covers up for a good cgi on She-Hulk.

  2. #11602
    Just badass Sano's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Yes!!! She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel are part of the MCU now!

  3. #11603
    Don't know what to say... Monquito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Kit Harrington had joined the MCU.

    Welp, with Tom Hardy as Venom, there was really no one else around for Welvorine I guess.

  4. #11604
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    She Hulk and Moon Knight are pretty hype! I haven't read Ms. Marvel, but I'm sure her inclusion will make a lot of people happy.

  5. #11605

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    I've ALWAYS disliked the Raimi films. Hated the costumes, felt it was TOO campy, . (And I'm an evil dead/Xena/Bruce Campbell fan fan) steeped in immediate post 9/11 New York love fest, and never ever liked Toby in the role. I kind of liked the second one at the time, but repeats have taken it apart.

    But I've always really hated the first one, since its release, that wasn't an opinion I came to later on repeats or thinking about it, I just hated it the first time I saw it. . I think if they had been the second or third go at SPiderman they wouldn't be as fondly remembered, but since it was the first one and it hit all the basic beats and people grew up on it its more beloved than it maybe should be. It went through all the proper beats, no major misteps, there wasn't anything to compare it to at the time, and the upside down rain kiss is the one truly iconic scene to come from it... but overall... eh. Basically any scene with the Goblin everything falls apart because that costume is just so bad and you can't see any emotng. (And they hadn't started CG-ing Spidey's eyes so no emoting from him either.) Cripes, that scene where Spidey and Goblin are on the roof and both wearing their masks and talking is just, ugh, so poorly done.

    Though I'm not really in love with *any* of the spiderman films, none of them have gotten it quite right. Raimi was too campy, Amazing was trying too hard to not be Raimi and rush a universe, and the new ones are too Iron Man. The Spectacular SPiderman cartoon though... THAT nailed it.
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  6. #11606

  7. #11607

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    – A 6-picture deal with Tom Holland, with an option for a 7th.

    – There are three more Spider-Man films after Spider-Man 3, which will be a new trilogy.

    – The second trilogy will focus on Peter Parker’s college years including plans for Peter to meet up and team up with Firestar and Ice Man of the X-Men (based in part on the old Spider-Man and his Amazing Friends cartoon).

    – The other three movies are two Avengers films in which Spider-Man will have a larger role and become friends with Johnny Storm (Human Torch from the Fantastic Four).

    – Marvel Studios will helm and co-finance all Spider-Man related movies for 30% of the full profits (Disney previously wanted 50%, but Sony said no, which led to the talks falling apart).

    – Sony would distribute, but Disney will acquire exclusive digital and online rights for Disney Plus and affiliated TV networks.

    – Marvel Studios will helm and co-finance SpiderVerse live-action spinoffs under the same terms.

    – Venom will relocate into the MCU.

    – Sony will be given permission for TV live-action programs based on SpiderVerse properties (Sony only has film rights to Spider-Man, but needs permission from Disney for TV rights)

    – Disney wants the deal to be done before Saturday’s Marvel panel at D23 Expo.

    – Spider-Man is also said to be a part of a D23 Expo panel.

    In addition to this if another company purchases Sony such as Apple, the full rights of Spider-man will go back to disney.
    I dunno how I feel about Firestar and iceman stuff, that's just... why hold so tightly to that randomness from the 70s when that grouping was just... whatever? Though its hard confirmation that the X-Men adn Fantastic Four will be integrated. WHich we knew was of course going to happen but not how, especially since they weren't slated at all for phase 4. Maybe they'll go the Black Panther route and introduce those elements and get the origins out of the way in films that aren't theirs. SLowly introducing one or two mutants at a time might help alleviate the "and suddenly theres a million of them" issue... and allow them to spotlight someone other than Wolverine, who I'm sure they're in no hurry to recast.

    But it looks like it also means Sony's films (at least Venom) will also get to play in the MCU and have access to that material,. If that holds for Morbius and Kraven and SIlver Sable, or if Sony even wants to waste time on those now remains to be see.

    And live action Spiderverse tv shows? I suppose giving Miles and Gwen a tv show is one way to get around the fact they want to have Peter be SPiderman for basically forever.

    Also, this means Tom Holland is going to be Spiderman for basically forever, he'll be near impossible to replace when he finally decides he's done. He claims he wants to do it forever and maybe he will play SPidey for the next 30 years, but I have to imagine 11+ films prominently in the role might be enough for anyone. (And as a lead holding down the films no less, not a secondary like Nick Fury or Hawkeye)
    Last edited by Robby; August 23rd, 2019 at 07:58 PM.
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  8. #11608

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I dunno how I feel about Firestar and iceman stuff, that's just... why hold so tightly to that randomness from the 70s when that grouping was just... whatever?
    Nostalgia which was the same reason why it was one of the many universes that wound up on the chopping block in the Spider-Verse comics.

    Except I don't think this is going to involve people crying about their childhood being ruined......hopefully.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  9. #11609

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    I kinda wished they'd replace fire star with Human Torch, I loved watching spidey iceman and human torch hanging out and trying to get girls with each other in the ultimate comics

    Though I guess Iceman is gay now in the comics so that probably won't happen either

  10. #11610
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    You're basically saying that Sony would be dumb to try Spider Man w/o Disney, but also saying that Disney really needs Spider Man. If they both equally need each other, they're equally at fault until proven otherwise. All we've gotten is a narrative where Disney wants it to work so bad and Sony is the big bad corporation that doesn't want to play ball. All this behind the scenes narrative manipulation feels like Disney has their hand up the consumer's backside. Just feeding them talking points. I just choose to not help either in this weird battle. It feels sheep like to choose a side here and be angry at Disney or Sony.

    When it comes to Vulture, he was just a bad leader and had a weird temper where they would try to make him funny, but serious. It was weird. Dude thought he'd suspend the guy in air, but when he just killed him, he was like oh okay. Oc was consistent and was obsessed with his work. Peter in Spidey 2 went through times where his power would fail him and it was emphasized and connected to his adult affairs. Peter in Spidey 2 was just dumbed down too much. He's young and going through, but the way he gave up EDITH was laughable and rushed. The Betty/Ned relationship looked uncomfortable. Mysterio wasn't bad, but was a weak link and it's not Jake's fault because he did a great performance. At least Vulture was intimidating, despite his horrendous writing where he's supposed to be serious, but a lil funny.

    Homecoming just felt like a big MCU movie where I can take any hero, have Tony be the mentor and Chitauri weapons fall into the wrong hands. The greatest parts about it have nothing to do with the MCU and more to do with Spider Man. The Holland movies rely too much on the MCU and the MCU isn't putting too much stock in Spidey. They just made it where some would feel like he wouldn't do well outside of the MCU, when Spidey 1 and 2 were just fine w/o the Avengers being mentioned every 15 minutes.
    I'm basically saying the first bit, yes, but nothing about Disney needing Spider-Man; I'm talking about them being the ones in whose hands he's able to be handled more capably and will be the ones who can deliver what the fans want to see by sharing their universe with him. Sony WAY disparately needs Disney more to make their product not suck and they're the ones who turned to Marvel for help in the first place so they're being the ones that are biting the hand that is feeding them and they should be grateful for Disney not demanding more. At the same time Disney might be too greedy in this negotiation for their own good but at the end of the day it's not them losing anything they needed, Sony is the one walking away with a broken toy. Spider-Man to Disney was just icing on the 2.8-billion layer cake.

    I'm not arguing Vulture is a good villain (not that the MCU has spectacular ones in general anyway) but compared to Doc Ock, at least I could identify with him more as a normal person. There's an arc, if not much of one, and he chooses not to descend even further into evil when he has the chance. Not quite as one-note as some of the others but not top tier either. Way better than Beck's resolution in the end, a true putz even in death. But the biggest problem is this incarnation, built up over 5 movies now, is so tied in to the MCU that extricating him now will make it impossible to continue without them and nobody wants yet ANOTHER reboot even if they're going to build up a universe with Venom and all that set apart from the MCU. I know a few people have described the Raimi films as 'campy' and that's probably the best adjective for them, and nobody in my circle of geeks feels like any of those were 'just fine'. Throw in how badly they mishandled the Ghost Rider and not-so-Amazing Spidey duologies, and, well...
    Spoiler:





    It's just sad that it's so transparent that neither company actually cares enough about the fans to not let crap like this happen. They already know from DC what happens when they don't show either the source material or the audience the proper respect. It's just astonishing how they don't fear a turning tide if they give us reason to shun them for this when we're the ones really getting thrown under the bus.

  11. #11611

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Looks like a MCU fanboy's wish list. Would be hilarious if this was a tactic by Disney just to make a D23 announcement

  12. #11612
    The English Avenger Satsuki's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    This would be like the best post-credits ever:

    Hidden:

  13. #11613

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Is Nick Furry going to be play by Samuel L. Catson?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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  14. #11614
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Wait, you all are talking about how older Spider-Man movies stack up today? Oh, I know D23 announced a bunch of potentially cool shows, but I NEED to get in on this discussion. Sorry for my longass comment but I rewatched all of the films last month to prepare for Far from Home and I haven't found an opportunity to express my thoughts until now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    Didn't know there were that many comic book live action fans here. This is a dope discussion.

    Since we're on the topic. Top 5 MCU Villains?
    1. Vulture
    2. Mysterio
    3. Loki
    4. Killmonger
    5. Thanos (I think Thanos' portrayal is mostly lame but he is still better than most bland MCU villains by default)
    Honorable Mentions: Justin Hammer is hilarious and both Crossbones in Civil War and Ghost because they're the only few MCU villains that wears a damn costume.

    Nobody else is worth remembering. And I do not like Ego. Or most of Guardians 2. So much of the humor and drama, while good on paper, is executed poorly with really juvenile writing and emotional tonal clashes.

    I am very critical towards the MCU, but one thing I will credit the MCU Spider-Man films for is having the best cinematic Spider-Man villains. I love Vulture's design, motivations, and twists. Having Mysterio be a movie crew team led by an angry director is such a fun way to realize a character themed around special effects illusions, and the final fight between Spider-Man and Mysterio is probably the best finale fight in any Spider-Man film including Spider-Verse. Although Mysterio's plan makes zero sense in the long run when a legitimate supervillain threat arrives or he has to fist bump a flying superhero like Captain Marvel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    The Sam Raimi movies were somewhat campy (which I fail to see why is automatically negative, especially for a property such as this) but they were also earnest. They commited wholeheartedly to showing the (melo)drama of Spider Man, and as a result theres so much more pathos, more genuine emotion in those films than in the Tom Holland ones, let alone your average MCU movie.
    As someone who recently watched all seven live-action Spider-Man movies in a row at during the last couple weeks of July, I completely agree with this and want to add that even the Amazing Spider-Man movies, despite how Sony tried to rush a cinematic universe and the dumb Parker parent conspiracy plotline, did a great job of committing to emotional/pathos moments

    I see a lot of people commenting that the Raimi movies are campy, and there are few cheesy campy moments here and there (and Sam Raimi really likes annoying cliche horror movie villain woman screaming for some reason). But there's a lot more mature emotional gravitas than you expect too with Uncle Ben's death and legacy throughout the trilogy, Peter's relationship with Aunt May (whereas MCU Aunt May is just used as a "wow, she's so hot" punchline most of the time"), and Peter's trouble balancing all of his life's obligations while making hard compromises with big consequences.

    Although Peter and MJ's romance in the Raimi films is complete trash in spite of being the biggest ongoing emotional focal point of the whole trilogy. Both the Amazing and MCU films have better romantic chemistry and likable love interests. Probably the only time I liked Peter and MJ's relationship was the first time they argue about MJ's actress career flopping in Spider-Man 3 because that was the first time they felt like human beings that weren't acting immaturely wishy washy (Amazing Spider-Man 2 also has a bunch of wishy washy romance drama, but it gets solved quicker and it's for better reasons and the acting romantic chemistry redeems a lot of it), making petty jabs at each other for attention, or saying really cheesy cliche romantic dialogue that would sound creepily unnatural if you turned the music off. The only reason people might think of that relationship fondly is because Elfman's soundtracks and Raimi's camera shots make their scenes feel more romantic than they actually are.

    And despite whatever critiques I have for any Spider-Man film, the one aspect I can easily credit ALL of the Raimi and Amazing films for that the MCU films will never match up to is the action choreography. It is so bombastic and makes use of Spider-Man's acrobatics so cleverly while the MCU Spider-Man movies just do the bare minimum. And did you know that Doc Ock's arms in Spider-Man 2 mostly used practical effects and made actual tentacles staff people puppeteered?

    The only times the MCU Spidey movie action impressed me was with the final Vulture and Mysterio fights and that Mysterio illusion scene, and those weren't due to the choreography being great so much as how unique the situations were like fighting on a plane against a flying supervillain or hopping around a swarm of illusion projection robots to find the real puppet master.

    It's easy to think the MCU action is fine, but when you watch these movies or just their fights scenes back-to-back, good god Homecoming and Far from Home are so underwhelming to sit through. Feel free to bash the earlier Spider-Man movies as much as you want because there is more than enough to criticize for sure, but I dare anyone to try convincing me the action sequences in MCU Spider-Man movies are anywhere as ambitious as any of the other films besides maybe Spider-Man 1's dated CGI.

    Spoiler:

    I like this whole sequence, but 2:47-3:30 is the most essential if you need to skip and just beautiful.










    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    But I've always really hated the first one, since its release, that wasn't an opinion I came to later on repeats or thinking about it, I just hated it the first time I saw it. I think if they had been the second or third go at SPiderman they wouldn't be as fondly remembered, but since it was the first one and it hit all the basic beats and people grew up on it its more beloved than it maybe should be.
    I actually prefer Amazing Spider-Man 1 as a Spidey origin story over Raimi's Spider-Man 1, aside from the confused way it dodged saying the great power, great responsibility line lol.

    The first act has a bunch of rough edges like Peter fighting random people on a subway train when he awakens his powers and that random weird Tony Hawk skateboarding montage. But once the night Uncle Ben dies starts, the movie's pretty solid aside from how bland the Lizard is. And even then at least the Lizard has a wacky comic booky plan to turn New Yorkers into lizards while Dafoe's Gobby has... no plans whatsoever besides punking Spider-Man.

    It was a daring change to have Peter be so revenge-obsessed by hunting down criminals to find Uncle Ben's killer, but I'm cool with it and think it fits his character. And it makes his decision to start saving people, how he makes his costume/web shooters, and truly being responsible much more impactful and organic than how it just suddenly happens in Spider-Man 1 after confronting Uncle Ben's killer all much more impactful. Even the way Uncle Ben dies, how Peter refused to help a douchey store clerk from being robbed, works better because Peter doesn't know the burglar has a gun which makes Peter more innocent and grounded than how he was expected to stop a gun-totting robber in Spider-Man 1 just because he manhandles a wrestler. Peter's refusal to help being even more innocuous makes Ben's death all the more tragic and emphasizes the power/responsibility all the more effectively.

    I hadn't rewatched the Raimi films in over a decade until last month and had become more cynical towards their quality over time before recently rewatching them. And Spider-Man 1 is definitely dated in a bunch of ways. ESPECIALLY Dafoe's hammy Green Goblin performance, good Lord. He doesn't even have a plan after killing his old bosses who fired him at the Macy's parade, he just antagonizes Spider-Man and loosely hints that he wants to take over New York without explaining how because he's crazy and why not I guess? I like his mask, but the full green Power Ranger body suit is hideous (better than SM3 New Goblin and ASM2 Gobby, but that's not saying much at all). And does not deserve to be put on a pedestal like it often is. I like the final fight/ending and the action is decent although has some dated looking CGI, but that's really all I can praise the movie for.

    Also, nobody remembers this from the first Raimi film but... Peter murders Uncle Ben's killer. No, seriously. I know how weird that might sound.

    Peter twists Uncle Ben's killer's wrist, lets him fall out a window at least three stories high, and doesn't catch him before he hits the ground. I think I vaguely remember cops saying that he survived the fall, but that's a total morally convenient copout. For all intents and purposes, Peter lets him die and never feels any guilt or conviction about killing someone. It's not DCEU Superman or Batman levels of defying the no killing rule, but I'm surprised that no one has ever criticized that scene. I'm not even against this since it's human and understandable, but this scene is never addressed as Peter then decides to become a non-lethal superhero with a new costume until the third film. It contrasts with every other depiction of this confrontation, including Amazing where Peter never finds Uncle Ben's killer for closure and finds a better use for his gifts by saing people instead, and Spectacular Spider-Man where the scene plays almost exactly the same as Spidey 1 but Peter catches the burglar at the last moment because he knows Uncle Ben wouldn't approve.



    And while I'm on the topic of the Raimi Spider-Man films, Spider-Man 3 is still a dumpster fire but I can enjoy it ironically and actually found a couple small things I can appreciate about what it tried to do conceptually.

    I actually, no exaggeration, think it has the best depiction of Peter's corruption from the Symbiote. Just to get the obvious out of the way, Tobey's Peter is so dorky that I can actually see him doing that whole cringeworthy dance montage if he was filled with unwavering self-confidence (which is the point of the scene, to show how much of an narcissistic idiot he looks like while also showing how he doesn't care what people think about him). It's still totally fair to dislike that sequence because of being too cringeworthy regardless of intent, but I've grown to love it both ironically for memes and unironically for character.

    But more than that, Peter's moral corruption feels like a natural extension of already existent flaws in combination with coping with new pressure from his relationships, jobs, and superhero work. This portrayal is less the Symbiote is making Peter becoming evil but instead it enabling Peter's relatable/moderated but potentially harmful traits like being a crowdpleasing showoff (remember that this was the first thing he did with his powers before Uncle Ben's death) and aggressively barking back or downright bullying the people in his life that always push him around like his landlord and Eddie Brock being his rival at the Daily Bugle. Honestly, you can take the Symbiote out of the movie and I can still see Peter doing most of the stuff he does in that movie. Every other interpretation has Peter simply become an uncharacteristic asshole in an unnatural way and then when he takes the suit off he magically stops being an asshole. It's boring and it makes his misdeeds look more like he was a victim of the Symbiote than a properly written drug/power addiction allegory. Rather than realizing that he has problems he needs to work on even after he takes the Symbiote off, sort of like an actual cold turkey drug withdrawal period.

    The second dance scene in the club, Peter purposefully putting his hair down to look edgier, and Peter reuniting with MJ at the end of the movie despite him accidentally hitting her because he's violent prone are still super stupid though, and the writing can certainly still be much better and less cheesy all around. Spider-Man 3 is still, like I said, hot garbage. Especially Sandman and Venom (but I still prefer this Eddie Brock over Venom movie Eddie. Anything is better than that movie). But I like to acknowledge any positive aspects of movies to I see to learn storytelling possibilities and judge fairly no matter how awful most of it might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Though I'm not really in love with *any* of the spiderman films, none of them have gotten it quite right. Raimi was too campy, Amazing was trying too hard to not be Raimi and rush a universe, and the new ones are too Iron Man. The Spectacular SPiderman cartoon though... THAT nailed it.
    I love Spectacular Spider-Man and think it is easily the best Spider-Man adaptation aside from Spider-Man PS4. But one thing I can criticize it for upon multiple marathon viewings and seeing other adaptations like the movies and PS4 game is wishing that it didn't stick so closely to the original Lee/Ditko stories and mostly having a episodic villain format for its first season.

    As great as the writing is, that show covered several minor Spider-Man villains, Green Goblin, the Sinister Six, the Symbiote Spider-Man arc, Venom, AND Kingpin (Tombstone, but that would've Kingpin if FOX didn't own exclusive Daredevil rights at the time) in its first season alone. I think Doc Ock suffers the worst for not feeling as important/climactic as the show's other big villains and his first Sinister Six team being punching bags for Symbiote Spidey to look lethal and cool. Despite getting cancelled so prematurely, that show would have really benefitted from reinventing certain Spider-Man villains to make them more interesting multi-faceted characters like the MCU movies do having more slow burn arcs instead of so many one and done episode villain schemes. After a mere two thirteen-episode seasons the rogues gallery was only missing Scorpion, Hobgoblin, Jackal (I wouldn't want a new Clone Saga though), Hydro-Man (he isn't that needed but if they did freaking Molten Man, there's no excuse to skip Hydro-Man besides early cancellation), and (ugh) Carnage.

    But that's just me explaining how I think a great 2000's cartoon without the benefit of hindsight from future adaptations could have become a perfect timeless cartoon. It's still so good and I will always recommend it for any superhero genre fan.

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    Spidey 2 is so good. It understands that it's a comic book movie, but has mature motivations and great characterizations. It also feels like a big event movie, whereas the new Spidey films feel like they could easily be condensed into a couple episodes of a cartoon. The new ones have tried, like the Homecoming scene where Spidey gets from under the rubble, which matches that classic scene in the 80s Spidey comics.
    When I rewatched Spider-Man 2, fully expecting myself to think the film is as badly dated as Spider-Man 1, I ended up witnessing that it's still good. Really good. Great, even. Most of the drama points still hit, the cinematography is spectacular, the acting is good, Aunt May is freaking awesome in that movie (which only makes me depressed about how underutilized she is in the MCU films), and most surprisingly...

    My most favorite aspect of Spider-Man 2 is how freaking hilarious it is. It easily cracks me up more than any MCU film I've ever seen besides maybe Guardians 1. I've always remembered a bunch of moments from this movie since seeing it as a kid, but I completely forgot or never realized how humorous it is. Because it's a master class at slapstick and visual humor that's not even campy, just plain clever, simple, grounded, and funny. And more than that, the humor isn't just there for laughs but actually helps characterize Peter's awkwardness and New York as a living breathing population reacting to his existence while making him an endearing underdog enduring adversity and trying his best in a world that loves to shit on his existence. This is the one superhero film that actually knows how to balance both lighthearted humor and dark emotional moments where they complement each other's effectiveness instead of those two sides tainting/inhibiting each other like the average MCU film.

    Spoiler:

    Start at 2:49


    Start at 2:29




    Then you have MCU Spidey where apartment neighbors scream at him for setting off car alarms while catching a car thief, can't stop bank robbers from lasering a bodega in half (but the people inside conveniently survive without a scratch), wrecks people's backyards chasing after villains because he can't web swing well in suburbs, knocks his head against a bell at least two or three times while webbing up Hydro-Man's collateral damage, Tony Stark/restaurant employees/Happy Hogan trying to hit on Aunt May, Peter's best friend openly declaring during phys ed that Peter knows Spider-Man and can show up to Liz's party, accidentally summoning a drone to attack a rival competing for MJ's affection during a bus ride, and everyone close to Peter finding out his secret identity with little-to-no repercussions for comedic effect until the end of Far from Home.

    These gags are fine on their own, on paper at least since execution can still be better. Except the last two things, those are irredeemably idiotic writing. But when these types of scenes keep happening one after another, it makes Tom Holland's Peter's heroic attempts (and sometimes his supporting cast) look incompetent at best and straight-up annoying at worst. And I know that's the whole point of Peter's arcs in Homecoming and Far from Home, for Peter to acknowledge his flaws and that he can't live up to certain expectations so he should stick to his own style. But the movies do so little for me to actually like Peter, root for him to save the day, and prove his critics wrong; and only feel like authentic Spider-Man stories during their third acts.

    Not just that, an maybe this is just me although I think Daz agrees from his comment, but it also feels nastily cynical towards Spider-Man being a street-level hero? It makes his street level heroics like the butt of the joke to subvert what you expect from a Spider-Man story, and tackling an Avengers threats while toying around with advanced tech and multiple suits is what's REALLY cool and hip about being a superhero. Instead of, you know, just helping and saving people. And I don't mean as just a short cute first act montage to set up the status quo. I remember when Tony tells Peter that stopping the alien weapon trafficking ring is "a bit below the Avengers' paygrade", which I understand (yet also don't because Tony is partying in another country and is sending one Avengers or two to deal with that asking for too much), but that juxtaposed with the whole movie feels so dismissive of authentic Spider-Man street-level stories.

    It's ironic how I bashed Homecoming marketing Iron Man's inclusion so much, only for him and Vulture to end up being some of the only things I like about that movie. Partially because Tony's interactions with Peter are actually funny, but more than that I actually agree with him that Peter needs to stop being going after supervillains because he sucks and has no relatable competency growth like Miles does in Spider-Verse. Actually, Spider-Verse as a whole is basically Spider-Man: Homecoming done right in terms of having an unexperienced Spider-Man learn from a mentor hero and come to grips with their incompetence. You can have Peter's life suck while Spider-Man succeeds and Spider-Man's heroics come short while Peter's life is awesome, but when they're both awful for most of a two hour film (in smaller bursts it can be fine and very tragic/sympathetic) there's little that's endearing for me to latch onto.

    I go into these films feeling like an excited Spider-Man fan that relates to Peter Parker and walk out feeling like J. Jonah Jameson or Flash Thompson. I don't like that feeling.

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    But the reverence Raimi had for comics and his gift for framing his films similarly to them made the original trilogy more visually spectacular. Spiderverse, which for me is the best Spidey film, is similar in its triumphs. It's like a comic book pokemon evolved into a movie pokemon, but kept 2 of the same moves and it works brilliantly. I think years from now, people will remember Holland very fondly, but won't really talk much about his films, but Spidey 2 and 1 will really stand the test of time.
    To this day, the cinematography for several Raimi scenes (the upside down rain kiss, Doc Ock throwing the van at Peter and MJ, every Doc Ock fight, Spidey saving the train, etc.) and just how Spider-Man web swings with so much weight, speed, and bounciness in those movies has never been matched, let alone surpassed. It's honestly gotten worse with each series, although I think the Amazing films had a neat thing going on with its first-person perspective web-swinging shots.

    Quote Originally Posted by andre View Post
    I think Holland has had the best direction for Spidey, but I don't think his acting is any better than Tobey's or Garfield, and the original trilogy had much more iconic scenes that really let us understand Spidey and Peter.

    Garfield is actually my favorite Spider-Man and Peter Parker. I like Peter's Tobey because he's such an adorkable geek (mostly in 2 and 3, because without 2's endearing humor and 3's goofy Symbiote antics, Tobey in 1 is just unfunny and sometimes even creepy) but his Spider-Man, while having the best cinematography/action, has the worst personality. Barely cracks quips, and the few times he does they're campy and not funny/clever at all. Spider-Man 1 even had a dated homophobic joke during the wrestling match.

    Garfield's Spidey has the best quips and helps civilians/kids out in an endearing way, and while he has Garfield technically has the least traditional Peter, I actually like how awkward he is at first and him growing confidence as he gets powers like standing up to Flash instead of acting passive like usual, and he's the most sciencey geek of all the Peter's by making his own tech and experiments. And he has great romantic chemistry with Emma Stone's Gwen Stacy.

    Holland's Spidey... I'd put his Spidey above Tobey's solely because he makes tolerable jokes more often, but that is not a high bar at all. Not his Peter Parker though, that aspect is pretty eh all around. The awkward geek moments are cringeworthy and he's sort of both popular and bullied at the same time? Only Flash picks on him but nobody else takes Flash seriously and thinks Peter is a valuable smart person, and Peter is crushed on by two girls. And his main character traits are knowing science but not doing as much with it as Garfield Spidey, geeking out over Iron Man and quoting pop culture stuff, having surface level crushes on girls that him and the audience have barely gotten to know or see much from, and panicking when he messes up badly enough to die. I do think Tom Holland is a good actor, specifically during his emotional scenes during the third acts of Homecoming, Infinity War, and Far from Home where he's in life or death situations. But the MCU's story and dialogue writing holds him back a lot from me actually liking most of his humor and character interactions.

    Spider-Verse Miles is the best though. And both Chris Pine and Jake Johnson's Peter Parkers are great, especially when you count the songs in that adorable corporate sellout Christmas album.

    Quote Originally Posted by Md-Martin View Post
    Really? I mean everyone has their own opinion, but personally I REALLY disagree.I love Spider-man 2, and the acting in it. But I've always been drawn more to Peter and Harry's stories. I always felt like Octavius in this film was more of a hill for Spider-man to climb over to really reclaim his heroics than a complete character and villain.
    Despite my praise for Spider-Man 2, I completely agree with Martin here. The only real critiques I have for Spider-Man 2 is Tobey's Spider-Man not being funny enough, his relationship with Mary Jane having zero chemistry whatsoever (which goes for all the Raimi films though) and MJ in particular being immaturely spiteful and petty trying to make Peter jealous of her marriage (which taints Peter's whole superpower depression arc because it's his rocky relationship with Mary Jane that is the main catalyst before those moments, rather than more important stuff like almost flunking a college class and not paying his rent on time), and Doc Ock as not just an antagonist but as a character.

    And I say this as someone who loves Doc Ock's action scenes, Alfred Molina's acting (especially when he threatens Peter by saying he'll peel the flesh off of MJ's bones), and his updated look (although he really needs a shirt and the PS4 game proved that you can pull off the classic goggles and green spandex suit in a cool way).

    But man, I could care less about this guy as a character. The tentacles poisoning Ock's mind is lame and makes him more of a victim than someone I can hate by removing how autonomous his intentions are in favor of sympathy. But even on that end, while his wife dying is sad I wasn't that invested in their relationship or the experiment. And while his interaction with Peter and life advice was cool, they still only have one conversation together. Only one before Otto breaks bad. They hardly felt like they were close as mentor/student, let alone friends. In contrast, the PS4 video game does this wonderfully by having Peter work with Otto and the latter being Peter's main inspiration for becoming a scientist since childhood.

    And then there is how as a supervillain, Doc Ock is only a bank robber and Harry Osborn's bounty hunter. It works decently enough in the film for the plotlines to interweave and function, but if you see Doc Ock in literally any other interpretation, such petty crimes are way WAY too mundane for someone of Doc Ock's caliber and ambition. And because his relationship with Peter isn't developed enough, his redemption in the finale with Peter's encouragement feels hollow and you can replace with Otto with practically any other low level supervillain in Spidey's rogues gallery like Shocker, Vulture, Rhino, or Sandman and the plot will still proceed the exact same way until the final fight, where they can either get arrested or accidentally kill themselves like every other Raimi villain for some reason.

    What Raimi misunderstood about Doc Ock is that it's not his tentacles that make him special. It's his intellect. Doc Ock is a criminal mastermind first and a physical opponent for Spider-Man second. The tentacles mostly exist to help Doc Ock with whatever he schemes.

    And the Doc's motivations tend to be simple ones like gaining power either socially or technologically, getting revenge against someone who wronged him, and/or, and this is the most fun aspect about him, ego validation. Here's a list of examples of how his schemes his usually go:

    Spoiler:
    In Spectacular Spider-Man, he kidnaps Gwen Stacy to extort her father Captain Stacy into getting him access to an NY police HQ server mainframe that will connect his cybernetic network to a satellite that will give him control over all the world's technology. He also wants to become the biggest crime lord so that he can toy with New York like his own science experiment.

    In Spider-Man PS4, spoiler tags for those who want to play the game
    Spoiler:
    he breaks supervillains out of jail to form the Sinister Six, releases a toxic chemical gas, and puts New York City on a government lockdown from the chaos all so that he can kidnap Norman Osborn to make him admit on a live recording his crimes and he ruined Otto's scientific career.


    In the Spider-Man comics, he cures Spider-Man from being from poisoned to death by another villain only to try killing him right afterwards because he wants the world to know that Doctor Octopus was the one to kill Spider-Man.

    He also beats Iron Man in their first fight and during an encounter years later, Doc Ock's body is gradually dying from his injuries against other superpowered people over the years despite having no powers of his own. So he announces to New York that he placed a bomb in the city and gets Iron Man to come to his floating base. Ock extorts Iron Man by telling him that he has to create a cure for his condition in 24 hours and Otto will disarm the bomb, or else New York is destroyed and Doc Ock "proves" Tony Stark is not the most brilliant scientist. Tony can't come up with a solution and before the countdown, he begs on his knees for Otto to stop the bomb and says that Doc Ock is smarter than him to fuel his ego. Only for Otto to play back a recording of what Tony just said on a monitor and reveal that the bomb was fake and this entire scheme was concocted so Tony would admit Otto was better than him on tape for ego satisfaction before he dies.

    And a bit later than that, Otto's last scheme before he dies in the Ends of the Earth storyline is reforming the Sinister Six, defeating the Avengers with years of plot device preparation, and releases satellites around Earth's orbit that magnify global warming to an extreme burning heat wave on command so that he can extort the world's governments into complying with their demands, one of which is to create a university named after Otto Octavius. And then towards the end of the story, Otto tells Spider-Man that he's going to kill most of the Earth's population anyways so that the remaining humans will always remember Otto infamously as the worst mass murderer of all time. Solely because any important publicity for Doc Ock is good publicity to him.


    Doc Ock is usually one of the most stupidly fun supervillains of all time with his over the top schemes with petty narcissistic insecure motivations. But what about any of these things makes someone go "yeah, he should rob banks!"? Let alone as one of the only crimes he commits during the movie besides hunting Spider-Man, kidnapping a woman, and accidentally almost blowing everyone up. Wanting to restart an experiment he failed even though it might blow up the city kind of fits him, but the circumstances for how and why this occurs are very lackluster.

    I know that a lot of this material came out after Spider-Man 2, but they were all inspired by decades of high-concept Doc Ock mastermind schemes in the comics and shows how dated Raimi's portrayal is. Even if he had to rob a bank, Doc Ock would hire someone else to do it because doing it himself is beneath him. The same kind of goes for hunting him down in all honesty, especially by working for someone else (let alone Harry Osborn of all people). Being reduced to so little is as embarrassing as going back to the Michael Keaton Batman movies and seeing Bats killing people all over the place. I don't mind changing characters for adaptations like what the MCU did with Vulture and Mysterio, but not at the cost of making them more generic/bland compared to how unique they are in their source material.

    I still rank Spider-Man 2 as my favorite live-action Spider-Man movie though. And the MCU films despite having my favorite villains and technically better written plots than Amazing Spider-Man 2 and Spider-Man 3, are at the bottom. Because I am still more entertained watching those heavily flawed panned movies than how underwhelmingly mediocre MCU Spider-Man films are.
    Last edited by Count Mario; September 8th, 2019 at 03:13 PM.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  15. #11615
    Discovered Stowaway andre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    That was a doozy of a comment... and I read all of it besides the Spidey PS4 spoilers, since I haven't played it yet. I need to get on that for sure!

  16. #11616

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    I love Spectacular Spider-Man and think it is easily the best Spider-Man adaptation aside from Spider-Man PS4. But one thing I can criticize it for upon multiple marathon viewings and seeing other adaptations like the movies and PS4 game is wishing that it didn't stick so closely to the original Lee/Ditko stories and mostly having a episodic villain format for its first season.
    The lack of any major takes over the whole story arcs is what i loved most about it. Also nothing can have too much Ditko. Maybe too much Stan Lee, but unless they start going - oh you were playing possum and narrating themselves in detail that too is doubtful

  17. #11617

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    I want Beetle to be the next spider man villain so we can start setting up a Thunderbolts movie

  18. #11618
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    The lack of any major takes over the whole story arcs is what i loved most about it. Also nothing can have too much Ditko. Maybe too much Stan Lee, but unless they start going - oh you were playing possum and narrating themselves in detail that too is doubtful
    I don't mind an episodic superhero story, especially for Spider-Man. But that show tried to make each episode's main gimmick its villain, one of Peter's loved ones being in danger, and occasionally love triangle/square/pentagon drama. And without interesting character or story development, or each new villain scheme being as or more interesting than last time, the villains get a bit old unless they get a new fun dynamic like Electro always kissing Doc Ock's ass when the Sinister Six gets formed.

    And when you try to have so many big villains in one season, you can't give them all the big stories they deserve from their comics that changed up the status-quo in such a short back-to-back period. Which is what made the Sinister Six, a supervillain team, suffer the most because they barely did much in the show besides get beat up by Spider-Man. Which is technically authentic to the first Lee/Ditko Sinister Six story, but that story didn't realize the potential of Spidey and New York as a whole having to deal with a whole supervillain team. Meanwhile latter comics and Spider-Man PS4 have the Sinister Six be a huge climactic moment that drastically raises the stakes, challenges Spider-Man to his limits, and puts the whole city in danger.

    The only Spider-Man villain that got to have an actual character arc in that show if you don't count the Green Goblin identity mystery are Eddie before he becomes Venom and Sandman. And I don't like Venom because Eddie's understandable reasons for hating Peter become invalidated when he starts trying to kill or hold Peter's loved ones hostage.

    Although Tombstone is weird because in season one he threatens Spider-Man by saying that he'll make more supervillains to distract Spider-Man from stopping his powerless crime empire minions. Then when Spider-Man refuses Tombstone's offer to work for him a second twice, he just... stops making supervillains even though his plan still gives him the upper hand on Spider-Man. And he doesn't show up for two thirds of season 2 until the big gang war showdown where he gets arrested. Additionally, is decision to also make Venom kill Spider-Man to prove his worth instead of hiring Venom on the spot or testing him another way was also really stupid and could have had the chance to make Venom an actually interesting villain by having him be an evil Spider-Man for hire.

    But to the show's credit, no other adaptation has tried to straight-up adapt the Ditko stories. They always tend to do their own thing or pull from the Ultimate comics. So it helped make Spectacular standout and show how some aspects of the Lee/Ditko stories still stand the test of time.

    The only Ditko story I need to see be adapted is the golf kart race between Spider-Man and Shocker where the latter yells "DON'T MOCK THE SHOCKER". Anything else besides Spider-Man sucking Sandman into a vacuum cleaner or Doc Ock smacking Spider-Man is meaningless to me.
    Last edited by Count Mario; August 24th, 2019 at 09:55 AM.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  19. #11619

    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    I guess that's why i'm such an oldtimer. I never felt that Spidey needed high stakes. At my ideal it is a small scale high school soap opera with a sprinkle of colorful more or less street level villains. Maybe that's why i so enjoyed Shocker-tana from spectacular so much, exactly the right level of ambition needed for a spiderman villain. Maybe if you are really ambitious you want to take over the mob and thats it. No world conquest, just making some small-time crime and cockblocking a hero is good enough for us spidey villains y'know

  20. #11620
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: Marvel Movies Thread: Excelsior!

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    I guess that's why i'm such an oldtimer. I never felt that Spidey needed high stakes.
    I actually prefer Spider-Man being low stakes most of the time too. I like him best as a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man guy. But I like high stakes once in a long while though, and I feel like that is what a team like the Sinister Six should do. Because, well, how do you make a Sinister Six story stand out from a normal individual Spider-Man story about a bank robbery or something low scale like that? Spider-Man stories should not be like that all of the time though, definitely not.

    And Spectacular Spider-Man's Shocker with a southern accent and being a hired enforcer is great. Electro and Sandman could be huge villains that threaten the whole city, but they are too petty and stupid to do that unless someone like Doc Ock is leading them. Doc Ock, Green Goblin, and Kingpin are the ones that think bigger. Sometimes Kraven or Mysterio when they get tired of being pushed around or get crazier over time. But mostly it's fun or grounded stories about Spider-Man helping/inspiring/bonding with people around New York, and trying to keep his pitiful underdog life in order just barely.

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

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