My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

[zeltrax225]

This moral dilemma would have worked better if all of them showed a little of remorse when they were causing the deaths of so many people.
Unfortunately the only one that actually had some dilemma is now dead.
There's spinner but yeah no, he would have done that already.
Toga and gang don't really get to justify much when they are the one pulling the plug first.
This isn't even an issue of race discrimination or species discrimination and ultimately is just a bunch of lonely and abandoned kids with a head too big for themselves.

The character of Gentle is the conclusion to this whole should we kill the villain dilemma , yes society is a piece of shit sometimes but when you actually kill an innocent someone then it is and should all be fair game.
I brought him up because he has a much stronger characterization and morality than this bunch of kids throwing a huge temper tantrum because they didn't get handed a silver plate.

Hawks had to choose between killing Twice or watching him do something that will aid the LOV further cause more deaths.
And then those innocent lives will be on him.
It's either he dirty his hands to save lives or watch them die because he want to be roleplay a saint.

[JulieYBM]

The problem is that Horikawa doesn't really seem to buy into authoritarianism (the heroes) as being wrong. There's not enough of a strong depiction of the 'villains' as being the protagonists: Toga, Jin, and Mag-nee are victims of a broken system. They're an allegory for the real world's marginalized people. Hell, Mag-nee IS a real world marginalized person: she is a trans woman who turned to crime to survive. The hero Tiger is reward with being a 'proper citizen' by being able to transition, Mag-nee is punished by not being allowed to transition. It's an extremely transphobic message and goes to show Horikawa and JUMP editorial are only thinking about making sure the children reading this comic are good little soldiers for authority when they grow up.

[DestinyDogma]

I mean, the fact that most villains get scenes that humanize them and create empathy makes me think that Horikoshi believes that those situations are wrong and must be corrected, so if MHA will end defending the status quo is something we have to wait to see.

Before the story ends, it should have addressed the following:
-Twice becoming homeless at 17, losing all his support structure because of a chrime he didn´t commit (hell, even if he was guilty that would be just pushing him further)
-The quirk support program forcing Toga to bottle up her urges, instead of teaching her healthier ways to deal with it.
-The discrimination that Spinner and even Deku faced at the start of the story.
-Civilians becoming so dependant on heroes that won´t help a lost kid.

Also, so far only AFO seems to be evil for the sake of it (though Hori could give him a backstory that explains why he is that way though), on the other hand we have groomed villains (shigaraki, redestro, maybe Geten), victims of the cirscunstances (twice, spinner, toga), the NRA members (most of the MLA top brass), etc.

[zeltrax225]

The problem then, is real world marginalized people don't actively commit terrorism, spread hate and kill people off.
It's a rather extreme... stance to take, to want us to empathize with marginalized groups when that very group kills off innocent people.
I don't want to stir the pot too much, but I can even see it as a form of pandering and purposeful attention given to our current societal issues.
That is a good thing but terrible and distasteful if the execution and depth of understanding is not there or written well.

For the main villain and end game, Shiragaki never did come off as complex or deeper than what he is.
You would think after so much screen time and development, there would be something significant there.
It's one thing if he truly wishes to create a fairer world and another when he is pulling the entire world into his tantrum which basically amounts to terrorism.

Which is funny because as a direct foil to him, Deku is hardly a complex or multi facet character either.
He's a good guy and superman and that's the story.
I don't know whether this series is attempting to transit into something else that its very foundation didn't try to be, and I hope that if so, the author is able to do it properly.
Because this series was more towards black and white than it was ever about grey areas.

[pariston_hill]

The problem then, is real world marginalized people don't actively commit terrorism, spread hate and kill people off.
It's a rather extreme... stance to take, to want us to empathize with marginalized groups when that very group kills off innocent people.

Except historically, they do. From IRA and ETA, to the kurdish militia fighting ISIS.

For the main villain and end game, Shiragaki never did come off as complex or deeper than what he is.
You would think after so much screen time and development, there would be something significant there.
It's one thing if he truly wishes to create a fairer world and another when he is pulling the entire world into his tantrum which basically amounts to terrorism.

Which is funny because as a direct foil to him, Deku is hardly a complex or multi facet character either.
He's a good guy and superman and that's the story.

Yes, that's a narrative problem. Shigi has always been around plain revenge against the society that abandoned him after being groomed by a narcissistic phycopath to think that's the only answer. But instead of filling his ranks with Musculars, Rappas and Moonfish's of life Hori decided to choose to make the LoV charcthers society's outcast that have been wronged by a system that refuses to see it's flaws. And in that regard he comes poorly because we the readers can see there's problems in the society, but outside the villains, no one in story acknowledges the structure as flawed. I don't think either me o Julie are arguing that murder is ok if you are opressed, but rather that a society with heroes fails to see the whys a person turns in to villain and mend those in the first place.

Because this series was more towards black and white than it was ever about grey areas.

Hori is bad going out of black and white, but I think that's a particular problem of japanese culture when writing about society, very few instances pop up to mind immediately when we think of the authority it's painted as corrupt, inefficient, evil, etc.
Now to something completely different: Deku needs therapy before his messianic complex gets himself killed.

[PatTraverse]

If the purpose was exploring the morality of a hero society, the story would have been much better served keeping it on a smaller scale by having more villains like Stain and less Gigantomachia. The former is charismatic and has actual ideals while the latter is a destructive force of nature with no personality other than being a manservant to AFO and Shigaraki because reasons. Either Horikoshi has no idea what he wants to do or he is executing things poorly.

[pariston_hill]

I think the poor execution is do to his immense fear of being cancelled, even know that's no way for MHA to be cancelled he keeps moving things to fast out of fear people will lose interest and ends with a mess of cool concepts thrown at us with out time for them to develop organically.

[Lord Gaimon]

Except historically, they do. From IRA and ETA, to the kurdish militia fighting ISIS.

the PLF isn't remotely similar to any of those groups (who are also bad outside of the kurds) they're more like a more chaotic and dangerous ISIS.

[zeltrax225]

I think I need to reiterate a little that I don't mean that marginalized people don't fight for their rights and I know that's a huge part of history.
Except the problem is I never did feel like LoV was doing anything close to that but are a lot more similar to terrorist groups and behave like a bunch of kids with too much power.
Maybe that's the whole point Hori was trying to make and they will develop from then on.. I think he's not handling that transition from smaller thugs to ideological powerhouses well.

But honestly, it's more of a "i'm fighting because I want change" vs "I'm doing this because I gave up and chaos is all i want"
You can see that in history with peaceful protests and even riots that gone awry but came from a good place vs bombings and killings done out of hatred.

[pariston_hill]

the PLF isn't remotely similar to any of those groups (who are also bad outside of the kurds) they're more like a more chaotic and dangerous ISIS.

1. I was not drawing a 1 to 1 comparison to the PLF.
2. I rather sit with IRA and ETA than with Thatcher and Franco.

[Lord Gaimon]

2. I rather sit with IRA and ETA than with Thatcher and Franco.

yes on Franco but Thatcher wasn't that bad.

[MDL]

Fuck Thatcher. Me and my homies hate Thatcher.

[pariston_hill]

yes on Franco but Thatcher wasn't that bad.

Sure she was
https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits/st...633014784?s=20

[JulieYBM]

Fuck Thatcher, fuck the US, too. Bunch of terrorists.

Horikoshi is either an authoritarian or a really stupid centrist/neoliberal who wants to shame marginalized people who use violence to achieve liberation. The lack of clarity just makes matters worse.

[Lord Gaimon]

Sure she was
https://twitter.com/crimesofbrits/st...633014784?s=20

dumb and reductive video, you shouldn't get your politcal opinions from internet memes

[Cyan D. Funk]

The IRA has spent the past 40 years being more a mafia dedicated to drug running and blowing up the odd car than it has been a "liberation" organization.

[pariston_hill]

dumb and reductive video, you shouldn't get your politcal opinions from internet memes

Didn't picked my opinion from that, but I taught a 2 min video was faster than doing a deep dive.

[DestinyDogma]

Horikoshi is either an authoritarian or a really stupid centrist/neoliberal who wants to shame marginalized people who use violence to achieve liberation. The lack of clarity just makes matters worse.

Insulting the author is a little too though, I think that Hori has the heart in the right place, but chooses themes too complicated to write about in a weekly shonen series. Otherwise he wouldn´t give the league members any sympathy or redeeming qualities at all, neither making clear that Tomura was made like that, not born.

For example and I think I brought this point before, if we start to look too deeply into things, FMA has a war criminal that took part in a genocide becoming the next leader of the nation, but it´s all good because he is one of the good members of said army. So it´s basically saying that sometimes, dictators are good for a country and can bring good change. Of course, I don´t think that Arakawa is a far right wing person, just that one specific part of the story needed a little change.

Also, sometimes mangakas without problematic stuff in their works end being pieces of garbage (like the ones from Kenshin and Act-Age), so making assumptions (good or bad) about the author´s views based on things they may simply not thought about that deeply is not always a good idea.

[JulieYBM]

I don't think there's anything wrong with suggesting that Horikawa just doesn't think his own philosophy through, but it's also just difficult to tell what exactly his philosophy is when he's constantly being unfavorable to characters with legitimately sympathetic backstories as opposed to giving authoritarian state supersoldiers the protagonist view.

[zeltrax225]

I think it's more of he don't really know where to go or that he's trying to go a certain direction without first building on it very well at first.

It's unavoidable that a large fanbase, especially with Hero popularity in the west will have fans that make everything into social issues or politics or what it should be instead of what it is.
It's highly likely that the intention was never for it to be a certain way but for some reason there are fans that always feel the need to educate a writer about him being close minded without realising the irony of the situation.
It is also unfair to expect him to have a deep understanding of social issues he did not experience/have to handle in his own environment and likely only get from second hand sources.
Maybe the best way is for him not to go that direction it all if his understanding wasn't there.

But it can be hard to be critical towards him, at least at this point in time.
Even though the execution is rocky, his heart could be at the right place if he is really intent on tackling the issue of marginalized groups and is prepared with a solution.
Right now it comes off superficial, but we'll see..I don't know.
At least, the character of Gentle gives me hope he has an idea where he wants it to go. R

Shounen magazine or not doesn't really matter. Even though they are exceptions and not the norm, we already had a few of those (Hunter, Note, DGM religious symbolism) and current series have been pretty daring in terms of themes (JJK, Chainsaw)