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Thread: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

  1. #4361
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post

    Spoiler:
    I would be strongly surprised if they don't go the whole "I forgive you, but for my own sake as a way to heal from my trauma and not give you power over me through hatred" kind of route. They keep hinting at something like that with moments like the dinner argument where they allude to Mama Todoroki forgiving Endeavor. Which is alright.

    But I'll give Horikoshi bonus points if he also adds something tense to their inevitable interaction, like Mama Todoroki saying that she's grateful for the new house but will never like or put up with Endeavor again for the sake of her and the kids, and literally tells him to leave the premises. Which would show that she has become more independent and confident, and can do the one thing she wish she could have done in he first place to protect her family.

    I think Horikoshi's only weak point with the Endeavor redemption arc is with the women, because we haven't gotten any showings of them actively resenting Endeavor or processing their trauma in present time. Only quiet ambiguous moments, flashback vignettes, and throwaway quote blurbs. So instead of looking compassionate and powerful they look like all-forgiving robotic saints, which is boring and honestly makes me dislike Fuyumi a little for looking selfish/inconsiderate even though I get what Horikoshi is trying to do by having her prioritize a healthy family over one split by resentment. And considering that they're both women, I argue it even feels a little sexist since compassion/forgiveness is often viewed as a default feminine trait.

    I'm satisfied as long as Horikoshi sticks to that dream of not letting Endeavor live in that house he's promising to build, Natsuo putting up with not never getting along with Endeavor, and Endeavor's marriage still staying split. Last thing we need is another Coco-esque toxic marriage reconciliation...

    Spoiler:
    I expect it will be like Natsuo. With a fearful Mom slowly realizing that manye he's not so bad anymore. I'm fine with the sister I think each represent a different way to approach the situation. Distance with Zuko, Resentment with the brother, reconciliation with the sister. And I think the mother is fear.

    I have zero patience with a reconciliation between mom and dad because most likely I will not feel confortable with a work a fiction reconciling his victim with his abuser. I am all for an asshole improving. I am very dubious on the asshole recieving forgivesess from those he abused. If Flamebeard gets happily married to a new person good for him. If he becomes a couple again with the mom I will hate it.

    It's kind of like I hate that ultimately the author decided Bakugo didn't need to actually apologize and actually Deku always admired him instead of acknowledging Bakugo was a dick and should do a proper apology and that he terrified a classmate for his own pleasure but as now improved.

    I can gloss over a lot but evrytime the mom is bring in the redemption arc I get testy about it. I want her good with her kids. Leave Flamebeard out.




  2. #4362

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Spoiler:
    Agreed about how good Horikoshi is handling Endeavor's redemption. It seems some fans go through the same cycle every time we focus on him: they expect him to get fully forgiven. At this point its safe to say it's happening through many steps or may not even fully happen at all.

    Ending talking about heroes never killing reminded me of All Might casually talking about how he thought he killed AFO the first time. Yeah, he wasn't conflicted at all about it. AFO made it personal by killing Nana and All Might had no problem taking him out. That may come into play in the future if Shiggy kills Toshinori. Will Deku want him dead or will Grand Torino or Bakugo champion for him and/or themselves killing Shigaraki for revenge?

    Glad the driver mentioned Endeavor being targeted again. I smell the PLF behind both attacks.

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  3. #4363

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Spoiler:

    How can I be lost?
    If I've got nowhere to go?
    Searched the seas of gold
    How come it's got so cold?
    How can I be lost
    In remembrance I relive
    How can I blame you
    When it's me I can't forgive?

    Good that Hori is going with a realistic redemption/atonement for Endy.





  4. #4364

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    I know a lot of persons don't want to see the couple reunite or Endeavor gets forgiven by his son, but from my experience and what I have seen this happens all the time in our society. People do change and some people have the ability to forgive despite the circumstances they were put through, I don't have a problem with him getting forgiven, what I would have a problem with if he is let off the hook without seeing what is actions have caused and so far it has been handled well

  5. #4365
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    I'm sure people slip and fall and die from banana peel in real life but I would find a shitty ending in piece of fiction. Real life is messy and doesn't obey any rational, theme, narrative satisfaction or message. Something happening in real life is not enough of a reason to put something in fiction.

    I do not want a victim of so much abuse that she to go to a mental ward getting back to being a couple with her abuser. I am not interested in that arc same way people have different trigger issues in what is depicted in fiction.



  6. #4366
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Spoiler:
    I expect it will be like Natsuo. With a fearful Mom slowly realizing that manye he's not so bad anymore. I'm fine with the sister I think each represent a different way to approach the situation. Distance with Zuko, Resentment with the brother, reconciliation with the sister. And I think the mother is fear.

    I have zero patience with a reconciliation between mom and dad because most likely I will not feel confortable with a work a fiction reconciling his victim with his abuser. I am all for an asshole improving. I am very dubious on the asshole recieving forgivesess from those he abused. If Flamebeard gets happily married to a new person good for him. If he becomes a couple again with the mom I will hate it.

    It's kind of like I hate that ultimately the author decided Bakugo didn't need to actually apologize and actually Deku always admired him instead of acknowledging Bakugo was a dick and should do a proper apology and that he terrified a classmate for his own pleasure but as now improved.

    I can gloss over a lot but evrytime the mom is bring in the redemption arc I get testy about it. I want her good with her kids. Leave Flamebeard out.

    Spoiler:
    I too would prefer to see Rei interact with her kids than have her role solely be a foil to Endeavor's redemption arc. That way she can actually feel like a character and not solely be forced into drama for the sake of drama after everything she went through.

    And when it comes to stories about victims reconciling with abusers, I'm usually cautiously open to it. Depends on the circumstances. But mostly because creators often go for broke with complete forgiveness and focus much more on the abuser's drama than their victim as if the former's guilt/self pity is more important than what they're putting the victim though.

    While we are on the subject, I strongly recommend checking out a manga called a A Silent Voice. It's a redemption/friendship manga about an elementary school kid who bullied his deaf female classmate and years later in high school is filled with guilt wants to atone. The manga surprisingly treats bullying even that early very seriously and it's a very thoughtful and heartwarming story analyzing what it means to find redemption and be a good friend. And amazingly enough, their relationship never spins into a cheesy forced romance. It got a movie a year or two ago as well. I know school bullying is usually a far cry from domestic abuse involving adults though.

    And I completely agree with Bakugo. I used to like him but Horikoshi still doubling down on his assholery and praising him for the smallest things at this point is getting on my nerves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nectar View Post
    Spoiler:
    Ending talking about heroes never killing reminded me of All Might casually talking about how he thought he killed AFO the first time. Yeah, he wasn't conflicted at all about it. AFO made it personal by killing Nana and All Might had no problem taking him out. That may come into play in the future if Shiggy kills Toshinori. Will Deku want him dead or will Grand Torino or Bakugo champion for him and/or themselves killing Shigaraki for revenge?
    Spoiler:
    Great point. Here's hoping Horikoshi can write a protagonist potentially sparing or redeeming their homicidal nemesis better than Naruto did.


    Quote Originally Posted by Riquelme View Post
    I know a lot of persons don't want to see the couple reunite or Endeavor gets forgiven by his son, but from my experience and what I have seen this happens all the time in our society. People do change and some people have the ability to forgive despite the circumstances they were put through, I don't have a problem with him getting forgiven, what I would have a problem with if he is let off the hook without seeing what is actions have caused and so far it has been handled well
    And I argue that's one of the biggest problems with our society. Especially in countries like America where divorce has historically been frowned upon and at certain points illegal, women and children tend to have less rights than the patriarchal father figure, and both religious and cultural norms advocating forgiveness and marriage as being synonymous with happiness and virtue.

    My issue with couples reuniting after separating for very good reasons like neglect/abuse is that in terms of storytelling it's nothing new whatsoever. It's practically a cliche that happens day in and day out, and is often made by writers who preach naive platitudes about universal forgiveness and redemption without actually researching, experiencing, or knowing what domestic abuse is actually like. Count how many stories you've seen where a character chooses to not forgive someone in a neutral/positive light and I guarantee you it's not more than a handful. They're the exception. And when stories about couple reconciliation are the norm, that sends a message to people that it's okay and what you should strive for.

    Couples may reunite often in real life, but how many of those on/off again relationships can you say are all that healthy? In fact, many abuse survivors state that they feel often think they deserve the abuse and feel like they should forgive their abuser for no good well-informed reason other than they apologize and seem nicer than usual. Which more often than not leads to them going back to their abuser. Then bam, the abuse happens again at least 90% of the time rinse and repeat.

    Because that's the scariest part about abuse. That abusers can act nice once in a while or even a lot of the time to make the people they hurt second-guess their negative feelings. People in those situations deserve to feel empowered by knowing that they can say no and find better options in life than put themselves at risk and stagnate their healing/growth.

    The fact of the matter it is impossible for Endeavor to show his wife (or children for that matter) that he has changed and will never relapse. Not only that but having to deal with the victims being reminded of everything they went through every time he shows his sorry face trying to do better. That is the main struggle Endeavor has faced with his redemption arc, why we find his redemption arc so surprising and suspenseful, and something he has come to accept.

    Having Rei forgive and get back with Endeavor, no matter how knowledgable and convinced we are as readers that Endeavor has changed because of our omniscient reading POV, is telling readers that it might be okay to give abusers a second chance. And that's quite frankly nasty and scary as hell to me. Especially because I actually see that happen frequently with both my family and friends. And even then very little of them deal with someone on the level of Endeavor who treated his family like eugenics experiment for vicarious life goal satisfaction and punched his kid so hard he threw up. His wife is in a mental hospital because she was so traumatized she mistook her son for her husband and scarred him for life with boiling water. If you heard about a couple like that getting back together in the news, would that seriously make you feel the slightest bit comfortable?

    Also, keep in mind that getting back together isn't the only option for Endeavor and Rei to possible reconcile. They can be, you know, just friends. They can tolerate each other around their kids. They can call each other when they need help. Why do so many people think that getting back together romantically is the only way forgiveness can work for an abusive relationship?

    That, and it's just plain unnecessary when Endeavor has multiple family members? What benefit does it add to the story to have every single one of them forgive Endeavor rather than taking the bold creative route and exploring different facets of tolerance/forgiveness with each character? Considering how Fuyumi and inevitably Shoto will end up forgiving Endeavor, wanting the same out of Natsuo and Rei (and let's not forget that if Dabi is Touya, he could potentially get redeemed and forgive Endeavor too for all we know) only limits storytelling potential rather than enhancing it in any meaningful way.

    I don't mean to sound like a jerk accusing you of romanticizing abusers or anything. I know you're being honest and optimistic. But you even said in your comment that "some people have the ability to forgive despite the circumstances they were put through". Key words: some people. I agree with that strongly. And Horikoshi should keep it as that. Having all the people we like and sympathize with in this story forgive guys like Endeavor is not only toxic, but boring and unrealistic. Shoto's arc of forgiving Endeavor probably isn't even close to finishing as of now too. Why do we need more "let's let bygones be bygones" level of forgiveness on top of that instead of more nuanced and thoughtful story variety?

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  7. #4367
    Pokémon Master brennen.exe's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    I'm trying to recall the depth of Endeavor's sins. Anyone remember the known abuses? I know he had a hero complex that led to his super-baby strategy, and from that he treated his children and wife like tools while isolating and forcing Shoto into hell training, but beyond that I cannot remember if anything else was shown versus implied. With Touya being an unknown, I'm wondering if there's room for Horikoshi to expand on Endeavor's past more and lessen the "explicit abuse" and turn it into callous neglect. I mean there'd still the child abuse towards Shoto, but I don't recall if anything else was shown? IE: What did Rei "endure and endure" before snapping at Shoto? Isolation and neglect, or outright abuse?

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not defending Endeavor, I just really don't remember what we saw versus what we interpreted. What am I forgetting?

  8. #4368

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by brennen.exe View Post
    I'm trying to recall the depth of Endeavor's sins. Anyone remember the known abuses? I know he had a hero complex that led to his super-baby strategy, and from that he treated his children and wife like tools while isolating and forcing Shoto into hell training, but beyond that I cannot remember if anything else was shown versus implied. With Touya being an unknown, I'm wondering if there's room for Horikoshi to expand on Endeavor's past more and lessen the "explicit abuse" and turn it into callous neglect. I mean there'd still the child abuse towards Shoto, but I don't recall if anything else was shown? IE: What did Rei "endure and endure" before snapping at Shoto? Isolation and neglect, or outright abuse?

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not defending Endeavor, I just really don't remember what we saw versus what we interpreted. What am I forgetting?
    I don’t think thar there was anything shown besides him overtraining a 5 yo Shoto or yelling at Rei when she tried to intervene.





  9. #4369

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Todoroki drama is officially the best thing about this series, if it wasn't already.

  10. #4370
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by brennen.exe View Post
    I'm trying to recall the depth of Endeavor's sins. Anyone remember the known abuses? I know he had a hero complex that led to his super-baby strategy, and from that he treated his children and wife like tools while isolating and forcing Shoto into hell training, but beyond that I cannot remember if anything else was shown versus implied. With Touya being an unknown, I'm wondering if there's room for Horikoshi to expand on Endeavor's past more and lessen the "explicit abuse" and turn it into callous neglect. I mean there'd still the child abuse towards Shoto, but I don't recall if anything else was shown? IE: What did Rei "endure and endure" before snapping at Shoto? Isolation and neglect, or outright abuse?

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not defending Endeavor, I just really don't remember what we saw versus what we interpreted. What am I forgetting?
    I think neglect was covered, as I remember Natsuo saying that Endeavor had little to nothing to do with the kids he wrote off as lost causes.

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  11. #4371

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Can we just talk how Bakugo is making things better by ruining the mood?

    "You smell like an old man!"

  12. #4372

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Alot of points but I just want to point it out for what it is.
    This redemption wasn't planned at all from his very first introduction.
    If it was, there would be hints or facets of decency in Endeavor.
    Welp just like the many things in this manga that weren't .

    The japanese love their anti hero and redemption arcs oh and villains turning to good guys so this falls somewhere around there.
    To be honest I have nothing against this arc.
    Not particularly impressed but just going along.

  13. #4373

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by brennen.exe View Post
    What did Rei "endure and endure" before snapping at Shoto? Isolation and neglect, or outright abuse?
    I think that a lot of implications were raised from this:



    He laid hands on Rei, which says enough for a lot of people.

    It was also mentioned early on that Endeavor used his power and influence to win over Rei's family,
    muscling his way into a forced marriage of sorts. Quirk marriages were referred to as a barbaric, outdated practice.

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  14. #4374
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by brennen.exe View Post
    I'm trying to recall the depth of Endeavor's sins. Anyone remember the known abuses? I know he had a hero complex that led to his super-baby strategy, and from that he treated his children and wife like tools while isolating and forcing Shoto into hell training, but beyond that I cannot remember if anything else was shown versus implied. With Touya being an unknown, I'm wondering if there's room for Horikoshi to expand on Endeavor's past more and lessen the "explicit abuse" and turn it into callous neglect. I mean there'd still the child abuse towards Shoto, but I don't recall if anything else was shown? IE: What did Rei "endure and endure" before snapping at Shoto? Isolation and neglect, or outright abuse?

    Don't misunderstand, I'm not defending Endeavor, I just really don't remember what we saw versus what we interpreted. What am I forgetting?
    https://www.readmng.com/Boku-no-Hero-Academia/39/14

    I think that's the only chapter where we get a glimpse.



  15. #4375

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    I do hope we get to see the whole thing from Rei's perspective and how exactly things went down from the beginning. Because the way it was worded in the Sports Festival almost seemed like she was forced into the marriage. But the way she talked in the Pro Hero arc, it kinda implied that there was some actual attempt at romance going on at first, or at the very least dating.

  16. #4376

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by MDL View Post
    I think that a lot of implications were raised from this:

    https://i.gyazo.com/3515467640aab6a4...9bcf3aa418.jpg

    He laid hands on Rei, which says enough for a lot of people.

    It was also mentioned early on that Endeavor used his power and influence to win over Rei's family,
    muscling his way into a forced marriage of sorts. Quirk marriages were referred to as a barbaric, outdated practice.
    People make it sound like he was constantly hitting her. But I dunno. Of course hitting her once is awful. Maybe it'll be more clear what happened when they actually talk about Touya. I'm still curious how the kids were becoming more like Endeavor when we saw everyone but Shouto playing.

    The quirk marriage thing did sound like a weird outdated thing. But then we got a brief glimpse of Endeavor seeming to know her favorite flowers or something. And Rei reflecting on it.

    I dunno what Horikoshi plans to do. But I don't think it's the worst thing in the world for Endeavor to try. But man.the hero works in Japan will be a wreck once everything is aired. Endeavour being awful for years, Hawks possibly killing the number 3. And then a bunch of randos in league with PLF.

  17. #4377

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    People make it sound like he was constantly hitting her. But I dunno. Of course hitting her once is awful. Maybe it'll be more clear what happened when they actually talk about Touya. I'm still curious how the kids were becoming more like Endeavor when we saw everyone but Shouto playing.
    I assume she was referring to a physical resemblance
    it's actually pretty close with Natsu, since of all their kids, hes the most rectangular like Endeavor

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  18. #4378

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Yeah, she just meant they look like him. That's why she snapped and threw boiling water at Shoto, too. Because his left side reminded her of Endeavor.

  19. #4379

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    And I argue that's one of the biggest problems with our society. Especially in countries like America where divorce has historically been frowned upon and at certain points illegal, women and children tend to have less rights than the patriarchal father figure, and both religious and cultural norms advocating forgiveness and marriage as being synonymous with happiness and virtue.

    My issue with couples reuniting after separating for very good reasons like neglect/abuse is that in terms of storytelling it's nothing new whatsoever. It's practically a cliche that happens day in and day out, and is often made by writers who preach naive platitudes about universal forgiveness and redemption without actually researching, experiencing, or knowing what domestic abuse is actually like. Count how many stories you've seen where a character chooses to not forgive someone in a neutral/positive light and I guarantee you it's not more than a handful. They're the exception. And when stories about couple reconciliation are the norm, that sends a message to people that it's okay and what you should strive for.

    Couples may reunite often in real life, but how many of those on/off again relationships can you say are all that healthy? In fact, many abuse survivors state that they feel often think they deserve the abuse and feel like they should forgive their abuser for no good well-informed reason other than they apologize and seem nicer than usual. Which more often than not leads to them going back to their abuser. Then bam, the abuse happens again at least 90% of the time rinse and repeat.

    Because that's the scariest part about abuse. That abusers can act nice once in a while or even a lot of the time to make the people they hurt second-guess their negative feelings. People in those situations deserve to feel empowered by knowing that they can say no and find better options in life than put themselves at risk and stagnate their healing/growth.

    The fact of the matter it is impossible for Endeavor to show his wife (or children for that matter) that he has changed and will never relapse. Not only that but having to deal with the victims being reminded of everything they went through every time he shows his sorry face trying to do better. That is the main struggle Endeavor has faced with his redemption arc, why we find his redemption arc so surprising and suspenseful, and something he has come to accept.

    Having Rei forgive and get back with Endeavor, no matter how knowledgable and convinced we are as readers that Endeavor has changed because of our omniscient reading POV, is telling readers that it might be okay to give abusers a second chance. And that's quite frankly nasty and scary as hell to me. Especially because I actually see that happen frequently with both my family and friends. And even then very little of them deal with someone on the level of Endeavor who treated his family like eugenics experiment for vicarious life goal satisfaction and punched his kid so hard he threw up. His wife is in a mental hospital because she was so traumatized she mistook her son for her husband and scarred him for life with boiling water. If you heard about a couple like that getting back together in the news, would that seriously make you feel the slightest bit comfortable?

    Also, keep in mind that getting back together isn't the only option for Endeavor and Rei to possible reconcile. They can be, you know, just friends. They can tolerate each other around their kids. They can call each other when they need help. Why do so many people think that getting back together romantically is the only way forgiveness can work for an abusive relationship?

    That, and it's just plain unnecessary when Endeavor has multiple family members? What benefit does it add to the story to have every single one of them forgive Endeavor rather than taking the bold creative route and exploring different facets of tolerance/forgiveness with each character? Considering how Fuyumi and inevitably Shoto will end up forgiving Endeavor, wanting the same out of Natsuo and Rei (and let's not forget that if Dabi is Touya, he could potentially get redeemed and forgive Endeavor too for all we know) only limits storytelling potential rather than enhancing it in any meaningful way.

    I don't mean to sound like a jerk accusing you of romanticizing abusers or anything. I know you're being honest and optimistic. But you even said in your comment that "some people have the ability to forgive despite the circumstances they were put through". Key words: some people. I agree with that strongly. And Horikoshi should keep it as that. Having all the people we like and sympathize with in this story forgive guys like Endeavor is not only toxic, but boring and unrealistic. Shoto's arc of forgiving Endeavor probably isn't even close to finishing as of now too. Why do we need more "let's let bygones be bygones" level of forgiveness on top of that instead of more nuanced and thoughtful story variety?
    God damn it, Count, I am not following the thread (or the manga) closely, but your rhetoric is always so damn good reading your posts is worthy even if I am not on par of the whole discussion. Just wanted to point that out.

  20. #4380

    Default Re: My Hero Academia II - Bhyyyyyyyyy

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    People make it sound like he was constantly hitting her. But I dunno.
    I dunno either, which is why I said "for a lot of people" instead of making the assumption for myself.

    I really hope we get more flashbacks of their domestic life.
    Shine a bigger light on how they treated each other as a couple.

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