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Thread: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Goodnight, Sweet Princes

  1. #3721

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    I think you and I have a different understanding of what nihilism is.
    Nihilism means many things mate.

    I've used it in the "stupid violence" way. There is only one character who's remotely into stupid violence in HxH, and it is Hisoka, and I don't like Hisoka.

  2. #3722

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    Nihilism means many things mate.
    ni·hil·ism

    ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/

    noun: nihilism
    the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless

    I've used it in the "stupid violence" way. There is only one character who's remotely into stupid violence in HxH, and it is Hisoka, and I don't like Hisoka.
    And I use it in the sense that most of the characters in HxH either have no value for human or are completely numb to the death and suffering of others, and I don't like most of the characters in HxH

  3. #3723

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    ni·hil·ism

    ˈnīəˌlizəm,ˈnēəˌlizəm/

    noun: nihilism
    the rejection of all religious and moral principles, often in the belief that life is meaningless
    ok tough guy, you know the definition. congrats
    even far-righty pepe-rs can do that

    And I use it in the sense that
    I said "nihilist violence" and not just nihilism. --->>> "absurd violence" or "void of meaning in violence" or "Q.Tarantino"

    most of the characters in HxH either have no value for human or are completely numb to the death and suffering of others
    not true mate

    and I don't like most of the characters in HxH
    why're you here then?

  4. #3724

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Guts dedicating his life to slaying incarnations of evil the world over is about as far from purposeless violence as you can get.

  5. #3725

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    I might have made people nervous when I said I didn't like Berserk and FMA, whatever. I'd like to stop the off-topic conversation and come back to HxH. If you wanna talk about another manga, try to make comparisons with HxH. If people go "Berserk is like HxH" I ain't answering though--- too tired, I've heard this too many times.


    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Guts dedicating his life to slaying incarnations of evil the world over is about as far from purposeless violence as you can get.
    Everything in the manga plotwise is a pretext to make an hyper-violent manga. It even fails at being cathartic. It's like what Q. Tarantino is doing.

    This is the last thing I have to say about Berserk, and people have tried to change my mind on this for years. Just saying that this conversation will lead nowhere. My sentence(s?) above is concise and says my idea about Berserk without developing too much. If anyone wants to continue the conversation, message me, but again I've had this debate many many times, I'm not sure it could bring anything new and would be relevant anyhow.

    Let's just agree that we have different opinions and people who don't like Berserk actually do exist.

  6. #3726

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    I said "nihilist violence" and not just nihilism. --->>> "absurd violence" or "void of meaning in violence" or "Q.Tarantino"
    This really sounds like something you just made up. Also, if you're using "nihilism" in the adjective form, it's "nihilistic"

    not true mate
    Well, I think we can agree that's true of most of the villains (Hisoka, the Spiders, Genthru, a lot of the Ants, Tserriednich, etc.), but as for everyone else:

    -The Hunter Association sends dozens, if not hundreds, of people to their deaths every year for the sake of their Hunter Exam and we're apparently supposed to be okay with this
    -The Hunter Association allows psychopaths like Hisoka to apply for a Hunter license and has no problem with them killing other exam applicants
    -Gon and co. see all the death around them during the exam and have no moral qualms with it. Gon, in particular, is very eerie in that he's not at all bothered by the bloody mayhem around him.
    -Presumably hundreds of people are either mangled or killed in the Heaven's Arena and people just watch it for fun. I know this is kinda like the Roman Coliseum, but...don't we generally frown upon that now?
    -Same with Greed Island. Dozens and hundreds of people die, but hey, "that's just how the game is played".
    -Togashi brings back Pokkle and Ponzu for really no other reason than to just kill them off (okay, this isn't really a problem with the characters themselves, but more Togashi being an asshole)

    And the list goes on. Togashi seems intent on filling his story with violent psychopathic characters and characters that just look the other way, while seemingly ignoring the moral implications of it. And I'd be fine if Hunter x Hunter was meant to be a crapsack world (like Berserk), but it doesn't really seem to acknowledge that it's a crapsack world. My point, HxH as a whole just seems to exude a very nihilistic tone.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    Everything in the manga plotwise is a pretext to make an hyper-violent manga. It even fails at being cathartic. It's like what Q. Tarantino is doing.
    Not sure how you determine that, but yeah, this really sounds like HxH to me. It's excessively violent, and the violence is often built on really shaky foundations. And I definitely don't feel cathartic about it. Just disturbed.

  7. #3727

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    And the list goes on. Togashi seems intent on filling his story with violent psychopathic characters and characters that just look the other way, while seemingly ignoring the moral implications of it. And I'd be fine if Hunter x Hunter was meant to be a crapsack world (like Berserk), but it doesn't really seem to acknowledge that it's a crapsack world. My point, HxH as a whole just seems to exude a very nihilistic tone.
    This, right here, is the real point. Yeah, the world of Berserk, much like the real world, is disgustingly awful in many ways. But the characters, both main and side, are constantly acknowledging this fact, always lamenting their tragic lives and yearning for more. Their dreams and desires are just as beautiful as any real person's... and that's what makes the story of Berserk more realistic and meaningful than anything that's been presented in HxH.

    HxH is full of ugliness but has no qualms with proclaiming that this ugliness is not only pervasive and natural, but also the core of existence - nothing else matters in the face of this realization because... there is nothing else. This manga is constantly exclaiming that there is no point in caring. It is the prime example of a story told by a supreme nihilist. Yes, people are an important part of the HxH world, but they are placed on par with other natural calamities like the chimera ants... which in some ways are shown to have more respect for the beauty of personal connection than any human character. Humans were made out to be more monstrous than even them.
    Last edited by benjamminbrown; June 11th, 2017 at 07:42 AM.

  8. #3728

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    This, right here, is the real point. Yeah, the world of Berserk, much like the real world, is disgustingly awful in many ways. But the characters, both main and side, are constantly acknowledging this fact, always cursing their tragic lives and yearning for more. Their dreams and desires are just as beautiful as any real person's... and that's what makes the story of Berserk more realistic and meaningful than anything that's been presented in HxH.

    HxH is full of ugliness but has no qualms with proclaiming that this ugliness is not only pervasive and natural, but also the core of existence - nothing else matters in the face of this realization because... there is nothing else. This manga is constantly exclaiming that there is no point in caring. It is the prime example of a story told by a supreme nihilist. Yes, people are an important part of the HxH world, but they are placed on par with other natural calamities like the chimera ants... which in some ways are shown to have more respect for the beauty of personal connection than any human character. Humans were made out to be more monstrous than even them.
    I may be mistaken (not really fanatic about HxH) but isnīt that depicted only in the world of Hunters and by extension the mafia? I mean we have a MC who leaves his home which seemed like an island full of loving people to consciously enter this world in which your selfish desires trumps anything else and the strong eat the weak, he basically glorifies this but this is a choice he personally made (putting the matter aside whether he should have the right to choose for himself in the first place due to his age and naivety) and the way he and others justify the lack of any kind of sympathy is that others have made the same choice to enter this world.

    At least thatīs how i always saw it.

  9. #3729
    Voici La Chévre Wagomu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    This really sounds like something you just made up. Also, if you're using "nihilism" in the adjective form, it's "nihilistic"


    Well, I think we can agree that's true of most of the villains (Hisoka, the Spiders, Genthru, a lot of the Ants, Tserriednich, etc.), but as for everyone else:

    -The Hunter Association sends dozens, if not hundreds, of people to their deaths every year for the sake of their Hunter Exam and we're apparently supposed to be okay with this
    -The Hunter Association allows psychopaths like Hisoka to apply for a Hunter license and has no problem with them killing other exam applicants
    -Gon and co. see all the death around them during the exam and have no moral qualms with it. Gon, in particular, is very eerie in that he's not at all bothered by the bloody mayhem around him.
    -Presumably hundreds of people are either mangled or killed in the Heaven's Arena and people just watch it for fun. I know this is kinda like the Roman Coliseum, but...don't we generally frown upon that now?
    -Same with Greed Island. Dozens and hundreds of people die, but hey, "that's just how the game is played".
    -Togashi brings back Pokkle and Ponzu for really no other reason than to just kill them off (okay, this isn't really a problem with the characters themselves, but more Togashi being an asshole)

    And the list goes on. Togashi seems intent on filling his story with violent psychopathic characters and characters that just look the other way, while seemingly ignoring the moral implications of it. And I'd be fine if Hunter x Hunter was meant to be a crapsack world (like Berserk), but it doesn't really seem to acknowledge that it's a crapsack world. My point, HxH as a whole just seems to exude a very nihilistic tone.
    I think that's an unfair evaluation that applies our standards to the world Togashi created. The world of HxH is one in which great individual power is real, attainable, respected, and in many places useful and/or required. The hunter exam is a path for people seeking to gain and use that power to apply themselves. Even if most people don't know about Nen, the fact that the hunter exam is this super dangerous thing is well-known, and anyone good enough to make it to the violent parts should already understand that. The fact that it's dangerous corresponds to the danger that being a hunter entails, where even just having the status, power and authority that comes with the badge can make you a target. If you can't handle it, then either recognize defeat and bow out, or just don't take the thing. The fact that they let people like Hisoka pass is something up for debate in their world and brought up during the election arc. Netero probably allowed it, since he was all about achieving that pinnacle of strength and seemed to respect anyone who would compete with him to obtain it, but that's speculation. Heaven's Arena and Greed Island are tests and celebrations of the individual power people have cultivated in their world. The latter is a Hunter only experience (you can't even play the game without Nen) and is clearly designed for people who already have attained some level of power and are aware of and used to the dangers associated with having it. Pokkle and Ponzu, sure it sucks that Togashi offed some of his supporting cast, but they were professionals in a dangerous line of work, so it makes sense that they might (and did) get killed.

    Actually on the whole Pokkle and Ponzu thing, I think that Togashi was perfectly in the right to kill them off. For one thing, HxH is already a big story with an extensive cast, and losing one or two minor faces that never had to be important is not really that harmful to the series. Togashi already has trouble managing everyone, so I'd argue that doing some housecleaning serves a purpose in fixing that a little. I also think that the way he used them was pretty smart. They're recognized faces and established characters, so having them killed off sorta palpably raises the stakes. It's not like it was impossible to make bee lady and that kid who only got his hunter license by default into more relevant characters, but if Togashi wasn't going to anyways, then having them killed off the way he did was a really effective way to use them.

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  10. #3730

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    I may be mistaken (not really fanatic about HxH) but isnīt that depicted only in the world of Hunters and by extension the mafia? I mean we have a MC who leaves his home which seemed like an island full of loving people to consciously enter this world in which your selfish desires trumps anything else and the strong eat the weak, he basically glorifies this but this is a choice he personally made (putting the matter aside whether he should have the right to choose for himself in the first place due to his age and naivety) and the way he and others justify the lack of any kind of sympathy is that others have made the same choice to enter this world.

    At least thatīs how i always saw it.
    Yeah, it's true that there's evidence of good people in the HxH world. But the most exalted characters are also the ones who have most pointedly put aside such humane concerns. Even the main character, who we are supposed to relate to most, is immune to wanton murder and slaughter to the point of psychopathy. There are no important human characters in the story who acknowledge the despicable way that the Hunter Association discards any meaning to individual life and well being and morality in favor of glorifying selfish desires.

  11. #3731
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobodyman View Post
    Well, I think we can agree that's true of most of the villains (Hisoka, the Spiders, Genthru, a lot of the Ants, Tserriednich, etc.), but as for everyone else:

    -The Hunter Association sends dozens, if not hundreds, of people to their deaths every year for the sake of their Hunter Exam and we're apparently supposed to be okay with this
    -The Hunter Association allows psychopaths like Hisoka to apply for a Hunter license and has no problem with them killing other exam applicants
    -Gon and co. see all the death around them during the exam and have no moral qualms with it. Gon, in particular, is very eerie in that he's not at all bothered by the bloody mayhem around him.
    -Presumably hundreds of people are either mangled or killed in the Heaven's Arena and people just watch it for fun. I know this is kinda like the Roman Coliseum, but...don't we generally frown upon that now?
    -Same with Greed Island. Dozens and hundreds of people die, but hey, "that's just how the game is played".
    -Togashi brings back Pokkle and Ponzu for really no other reason than to just kill them off (okay, this isn't really a problem with the characters themselves, but more Togashi being an asshole)

    And the list goes on. Togashi seems intent on filling his story with violent psychopathic characters and characters that just look the other way, while seemingly ignoring the moral implications of it. And I'd be fine if Hunter x Hunter was meant to be a crapsack world (like Berserk), but it doesn't really seem to acknowledge that it's a crapsack world. My point, HxH as a whole just seems to exude a very nihilistic tone.
    You're just wrong about the nihilism bit. You seem to be using your own moral standards to judge the manga, which isn't how it works. Nihilism says there is no moral code to be followed and nothing can be judged as right or wrong. That's obviously not the case in Hunter x Hunter because we explicitly see they have criminals, showing that there are laws in place. Also, the main characters have their own moral systems they follow. But I'll address your points anyway.

    -In this universe the prevailing philosophy is if you are willing to put your life on the line, then you have to accept if you lose it. The exams have been going on for years and its not a secret to talk about how hard the exam is or that people die taking it, so its not like new applicants don't know what they are getting into when they go. They're willing to put their lives on the line.
    -The Hunter Association believes in survival of the fittest, and they want the most extraordinary talents.
    -See point 1.
    -Football, MMA, and boxing say hello. This is a more extreme version but again, they are more accepting of death as a consequence.
    -Again see point 1. The game is advertised as "the game where you can die in real life" and requires nen ability to even enter it.

    I think its pretty clear that you have your own moral qualms with the actions and morality of the characters, but that doesn't mean there isn't a morality at play in the universe. Innocent bystanders barely play a role. Gon and Killua ruin the original plan to infiltrate the ant country so they can save the lives of millions of citizens. Even when an assassin hurts an innocent bystander, when Zeno hits Komugi, its not played up as business as usual. It's a big deal. Because even Zeno has his own moral code.

    Long story short. It's not nihilistic. Characters and the universe have a moral system.

  12. #3732

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Yeah, it's true that there's evidence of good people in the HxH world. But the most exalted characters are also the ones who have most pointedly put aside such humane concerns. Even the main character, who we are supposed to relate to most, is immune to wanton murder and slaughter to the point of psychopathy. There are no important human characters in the story who acknowledge the despicable way that the Hunter Association discards any meaning to individual life and well being and morality in favor of glorifying selfish desires.
    I think Wagomu articulated better what i wanted to say. Besides a few exceptions, all these things apply to the Hunter world, or am i mistaken? And the way i see it is that all the people who associate with that world by their own choice (whether itīs the hunter license test, arena, greed island and so forth) basically should be aware of the eat or be eaten and selfish mentality of that world.
    The reason why Gon does not feel bad because a few people fell to their death in the test for example is that he is aware of this.

  13. #3733

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    I think Wagomu articulated better what i wanted to say. Besides a few exceptions, all these things apply to the Hunter world, or am i mistaken? And the way i see it is that all the people who associate with that world by their own choice (whether itīs the hunter license test, arena, greed island and so forth) basically should be aware of the eat or be eaten and selfish mentality of that world.
    The reason why Gon does not feel bad because a few people fell to their death in the test for example is that he is aware of this.
    The problem with your argument is that you seem to forget that the central characters don't just put their own lives at risk. They all too often play with and discard the lives of "normal" people, en masse. This is frequently shrugged off and never given a second thought. The focus on that sort of behavior, and its acceptance as something not to be enraged or disgusted by, tells me that the author is most certainly a nihilist telling a story all about glorifying that sort of philosophy.
    Last edited by benjamminbrown; June 11th, 2017 at 08:44 AM.

  14. #3734

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    The problem with your argument is that you seem to forget that the hunters don't just put their own lives at risk. They all too often play with and discard the lives of "normal" people, en masse. This is frequently shrugged off and never given a second thought. The focus on that sort of behavior, and its acceptance as something not to be enraged or disgusted by, tells me that the author is most certainly a nihilist telling a story all about glorifying that sort of philosophy.
    Thatīs what i am asking essentially, are the lives of normal people risked en masse? Of course there are guys like the Troupe who kill indifferently but other than that, i canīt really remember. The test had people wanting to become hunters, so they know the risks, Yorknew had hunters vs mafia, Greed Island only had nen users, chimera ant only had pro hunters and mutated ants and the new exposition to the island (forgot what it is called) also mostly has hunters and the royal family.

  15. #3735

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by KageKageKing View Post
    No. It would have happened. Usually we get 20 pages per week. A monthly release comes with an avarage of 46 pages. About twice the ammount of pages. It would like getting a weekly chapter every 2 weeks.
    Maybe 10 years ago, I can't remember the last chapter over 17 pages
    Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
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    Spoiler:



  16. #3736

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by MiyamotoMusashi View Post
    Thatīs what i am asking essentially, are the lives of normal people risked en masse? Of course there are guys like the Troupe who kill indifferently but other than that, i canīt really remember. The test had people wanting to become hunters, so they know the risks, Yorknew had hunters vs mafia, Greed Island only had nen users, chimera ant only had pro hunters and mutated ants and the new exposition to the island (forgot what it is called) also mostly has hunters and the royal family.
    Is it okay to shrug off all of the dead bodies from the Hisoka/Chrollo fight as collateral damage? Were they really deserving of death just because they wanted to gamble over a martial arts match? Yes, the tower is worse than just a boxing arena. But the vast majority of the people in that audience were just normal people.

    Also, the chimera ants were toying with the lives of thousands and thousands of people in an entire country. They ate them indiscriminately and brainwashed even more of them, with the goal of slaughtering them or turning them into more chimeras. But even the chimera ants were shown to be more humane than the humans of that arc.

    And... the expedition to the dark continent is definitely not just a boat full of royalty and hunters. There are plenty of normal people on that boat. But I feel like they won't be living there for long, and there's probably not going to be much lamenting over their loss of life, either.

  17. #3737

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by Long John Silvers Rayleigh View Post
    Maybe 10 years ago, I can't remember the last chapter over 17 pages
    It's not a perfectly accurate math.

    Do not forget that double spread counts as 2 pages.

  18. #3738
    Discovered Stowaway algebro's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Is it okay to shrug off all of the dead bodies from the Hisoka/Chrollo fight as collateral damage? Were they really deserving of death just because they wanted to gamble over a martial arts match? Yes, the tower is worse than just a boxing arena. But the vast majority of the people in that audience were just normal people.

    Also, the chimera ants were toying with the lives of thousands and thousands of people in an entire country. They ate them indiscriminately and brainwashed even more of them, with the goal of slaughtering them or turning them into more chimeras. But even the chimera ants were shown to be more humane than the humans of that arc.

    And... the expedition to the dark continent is definitely not just a boat full of royalty and hunters. There are plenty of normal people on that boat. But I feel like they won't be living there for long, and there's probably not going to be much lamenting over their loss of life, either.
    Wow all of these either don't involve the protagonists or reference events that haven't happened yet. And again, Gon and Killua changed the group's plans just so they could save more civilians during the chimera ant arc. But sure, keep pretending like the good guys and bad guys are all the same haha

    The problem with your argument is that you seem to forget that the central characters don't just put their own lives at risk. They all too often play with and discard the lives of "normal" people, en masse. This is frequently shrugged off and never given a second thought. The focus on that sort of behavior, and its acceptance as something not to be enraged or disgusted by, tells me that the author is most certainly a nihilist telling a story all about glorifying that sort of philosophy.
    We have never once seen the protagonists mess with regular people. You guys keep throwing around nihilism but I'm not sure you know how it works, even though the definition was posted in this thread.
    Last edited by algebro; June 11th, 2017 at 09:36 AM.

  19. #3739

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    I think its pretty clear that you have your own moral qualms with the actions and morality of the characters, but that doesn't mean there isn't a morality at play in the universe. Innocent bystanders barely play a role. Gon and Killua ruin the original plan to infiltrate the ant country so they can save the lives of millions of citizens. Even when an assassin hurts an innocent bystander, when Zeno hits Komugi, its not played up as business as usual. It's a big deal. Because even Zeno has his own moral code.
    But Gon and Killua's involvement in the chimera ant arc has next to nothing to do with saving people. The whole reason Gon is there is first to learn from Kaito about Ging and nen, and then to save Kaito's life/avenge his death. Killua, as usual, is just along for the ride with his buddy.

    Netero, one of the most highly regarded characters, forces himself to discard his humanity (or embrace only the evil aspect of it...?), even in the face of realizing that Meruem is becoming more humane than any other human of status in the HxH world. Value isn't placed on Komugi because she is a person with her own life and worth, but because she is an important person to the King. Yes, she reveals to Meruem that there is value in all life, but that value is only there because apparently all life has the potential to become something capable of unlocking nen and hunter-like abilities... but at what cost?

    This is why the story is nihilistic. With great power comes great responsibility... oops, I meant disregard for all life in favor of your own selfish desires.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    We have never once seen the protagonists mess with regular people. You guys keep throwing around nihilism but I'm not sure you know how it works, even though the definition was posted in this thread.
    Right, because this story is only about Gon and Killua. Right. I forgot.

  20. #3740

    Default Re: Hiatus x Hiatus III: Returns on June 26

    Togashi himself went out of the way with the rose bomb to go "Yeah, the ants are bad, but the HUMANS, man, they're truly evil and nasty." Like a chapter full of narration explicitly making that point.

    Gon is definitely a better person than the villains, but Togashi explicitly made the point that everyone is pretty messed up and humanity as a whole is awful.

    WHich is basically an extension of the message he was doing at the end of YuYuHakusho but cut short because he got bored and ended the series abruptly.
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