Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

[Robby]

Because, if it *actually* worked that way, the final result would pace, read and feel very different.

If Toriyama is writing and leading the project through the entire process, and has been since at least the tournament of power, why does none of it have his feel or style in the end?

Why did they not start putting Toriyama's name on the chapters until chapter 43, nearly five years into the run AFTER the tournament of power? The consistently split credit with other writer/artist teams, why would they NOT put Toriyama's credit on there loudly as possible from the start?

They gave Toriyama a "created by" credit in the early chapters, (and Viz left it out entirely) but they didn't add the "written by" till Moro when it stopped being the same outline material as the anime was getting.


Do you also believe Togashi has a permanent medical condition that prevents him from having assistants do work on HxH for years at a time? That Oda carefully curates all the details in the databooks personally? (Sabo is dead!) Or that the Nana author forget how to draw? Or that George Martin will be done with Winds of Winter any day now? That Rowling had anything to do with The Cursed Child? That Harper Lee wrote To Kill A Mockingbird, then sat on the sequel (that she wrote first!) for fifty five years and then decided it was finally time to get it out there? That Kevin Eastman does anything on the new turtles comics aside from covers?

It's the job of the editorial to make it look and sound like the original creator has as much input as possible, that its truly as official and proper a continuation as possible, or that there's a real legit reason for delays. And they've clearly done a good job of convincing you.

When the anime ended, they discussed how they could goose the manga sales, and decided that saying Toriyama was really truly heavily involved was the way to go at it. That's when you get a handful of mildly edited storyboards, a handful of character designs, and suddenly a "written by" credit instead of "created by". Just enough to show he's involved.

But its NOT there on the page. It looks, reads and feels like Dragonball by committee because that's what it is.

What would be at stake for the rematch though especially since it's been long established that Vegeta and Goku don't give all that much of a damn their home planet was destroyed and their families killed in the process....Goku at least has the excuse of being too young to remember his life on Planet Vegeta.

Just have a rematch over Beerus slapping Bulma and being one of many people to humble Goku?

We're too far removed from it NOW for it to make much sense as an actual grudge match or real fight, sure. But for a long while they were basically promising that Goku was training to fight Beerus again and that basically every threat they've faced so far is one Beerus could have easily hosed if he felt like it, so it's been a consistent awkward spot where they have to keep writing *around* Beerus and Whis.

[gyuukarubi]

Because, if it *actually* worked that way, the final result would pace, read and feel very different.

If Toriyama is writing and leading the project through the entire process, and has been since at least the tournament of power, why does none of it have his feel or style in the end?

My friend, are these not a matter of opinion? Because as a fan for over two decades, I do feel Toriyama’s style in the Super manga — and always have.

Why did they not start putting Toriyama's name on the chapters until chapter 43, nearly five years into the run AFTER the tournament of power? The consistently split credit with other writer/artist teams, why would they NOT put Toriyama's credit on there loudly as possible from the start?

They gave Toriyama a "created by" credit in the early chapters, (and Viz left it out entirely) but they didn't add the "written by" till Moro when it stopped being the same outline material as the anime was getting.

Because his involvement significantly increased. Toyotaro said that he’d be “teaming up” with Toriyama for this arc.

I won’t address your other points because they’re about other series. Other media franchises surely work in different ways. I am concerned with this specific example of Dragon Ball Super.

It's the job of the editorial to make it look and sound like the original creator has as much input as possible, that its truly as official and proper a continuation as possible, or that there's a real legit reason for delays. And they've clearly done a good job of convincing you.

When the anime ended, they discussed how they could goose the manga sales, and decided that saying Toriyama was really truly heavily involved was the way to go at it. That's when you get a handful of mildly edited storyboards, a handful of character designs, and suddenly a "written by" credit instead of "created by". Just enough to show he's involved.

But its NOT there on the page. It looks, reads and feels like Dragonball by committee because that's what it is.

I’ll ask again: do you have anything to back up your claims? If not, then I want you to consider why you feel the way you do — and if your opinions on it are grounded in fact.

Dragon Ball “by committee” is an interesting supposition, as manga is not an entirely solo endeavor. The assistants and editors all help to create the final product. It has always been a collaborative process — DBS’ collaboration simply takes a different form than the original DB. But that doesn’t make it any less canon.

[Robby]

Because his involvement significantly increased. Toyotaro said that he’d be “teaming up” with Toriyama for this arc.

So... his involvement before was minimal enough that they didn't feel it appropriate to give him a written by credit or advertise the fact he was working on it?

He was just doing an editorial pass on something someone else was writing? Even during the period where you showed those storyboards he had some notes on?

Almost as if... he wasn't writing?

If he STARTED writing it during the Moro arc (and lazily rehashing Cell note for note) that's one thing, but he has not been guiding it with a strong hand this whole time.

I’ll ask again: do you have anything to back up your claims?

One last time.

Because the story doesn't reflect the style or approach Toriyama has had his entire decades long career in hundreds of little ways that add up to the overall feel.

Some of that can be explained away by heavier collaboration and another artist's style altering his, but not all of it. You read enough of an author you can tell when something changes .

If it all feels good and right to you and exactly like his old stuff, great! They've done their job. It doesn't come across that way to lots of others.

[zeltrax225]

I don't really read Super but this is the classic case of milking the brand vs the brand integrity.
It's like when a business gets so big they start pinching on the ingredients to drive up shares and satisfy the shareholders.
The quality isn't the same but you keep going back because of the brand.
As if all the people that have their pockets full from this franchise is ever going to let it die.
You don't really need sources or based evidence to know that this shit has worked since the start of consumerism and will likely never end.
It's nice to say that Dragon Ball is a special case, the authors and writers actually want to break new grounds in story writing.
Yeah good luck with that. Whoever that has integrity has to fight against hordes of cash eyed suits that want a cash machine to stay one.
Merchandising, flashy over the top scenes, needless drama, use of nostalgia to generate more money, etc.

Oh don't get me wrong, I have utmost respect for Toriyama.
And there's many ways a work can shine brilliantly, turning a manga series into a multi million series is worth a shit ton of respect.
But that means he is no longer accountable to just himself and we know what that means, it means it's never going to be his way or the highway.
Not everyone can be like Togashi(granted Hxh is not that big) and just say fuck it I don't really care, no like literally he doesn't care about jump pressure or whatever the hell
While I can't really compare because I haven't read super at all, I just feel like this is what the argument is.
I won't say he's "controlled" but "greatly encouraged" to have his name there and only need to spend a day or even less a week in office to generate millions more for the company
T

[valiantt]

Another solid comparison would be evaluating the difference in tone and presentation of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman vs Dragonball Super. Clearly Toriyama's influence is there in Super with bits and pieces but Jaco feels mostly like Toriyama with all it's zaniness.

[thegab]

A lot of opinions and assumptions here which is fine but let's not confuse a person's take on the series for facts. Unless someone has inside information not accessible to the general public ��*♀️

[gyuukarubi]

I don't really read Super but this is the classic case of milking the brand vs the brand integrity.
It's like when a business gets so big they start pinching on the ingredients to drive up shares and satisfy the shareholders.
The quality isn't the same but you keep going back because of the brand.
As if all the people that have their pockets full from this franchise is ever going to let it die.
You don't really need sources or based evidence to know that this shit has worked since the start of consumerism and will likely never end.
It's nice to say that Dragon Ball is a special case, the authors and writers actually want to break new grounds in story writing.
Yeah good luck with that. Whoever that has integrity has to fight against hordes of cash eyed suits that want a cash machine to stay one.
Merchandising, flashy over the top scenes, needless drama, use of nostalgia to generate more money, etc.

Oh don't get me wrong, I have utmost respect for Toriyama.
And there's many ways a work can shine brilliantly, turning a manga series into a multi million series is worth a shit ton of respect.
But that means he is no longer accountable to just himself and we know what that means, it means it's never going to be his way or the highway.
Not everyone can be like Togashi(granted Hxh is not that big) and just say fuck it I don't really care, no like literally he doesn't care about jump pressure or whatever the hell
While I can't really compare because I haven't read super at all, I just feel like this is what the argument is.
I won't say he's "controlled" but "greatly encouraged" to have his name there and only need to spend a day or even less a week in office to generate millions more for the company
T

I really like this post; it really exemplifies how you think about manga from an economic standpoint.

Manga is, first and foremost, a business. It came into being in post-WWII Japan in order to give the populace hope and courage after they suffered under apocalyptic destruction. The intent was to help civilians rise up.

I still view manga in very much the same way: as a product with specific intent (with artistic merit, given the medium). Just as how an iPhone could be considered a product with specific intent.

While you may consider it as “milking the franchise,” I see it as “a continuation of the franchise to give readers the same emotions they experienced in the past.”

Dragon Ball has always been about surpassing one’s limits and personal growth. It’s about courage in the face of adversity and fighting through pain to achieve a greater goal. These traits remain consistent in Dragon Ball Super and feel the most “Dragon Ball” to me.

If you came to Dragon Ball Super expecting the exact same comedic elements from early volumes and side stories, those still exist but are toned down. This is because at some point, Toriyama’s central theme became more prevalent.

Yes, this is to satisfy shareholders and continue the brand. Hitotsubashi Group and Shueisha have to eat. Dragon Ball isn’t doing anything revolutionary or groundbreaking.

However, I am continually surprised at its ability to evoke the same emotions within me as childhood — seeing Goku power up into a Super Saiyan and surpass his former self was inspiring: there’s always another level.

We can talk about the money machine, but I personally love to see a continuation of these traits. Ultimately, I don’t always read manga for “breaking new grounds in story writing” — something like the DBS manga has immense value for other reasons.

Toriyama’s involvement seals it for me, too. A man in his 60s returns to his creation to give us the same gift: hope, humor, and inspiration. If you know, you know. If you don’t feel it, we’re reading it differently.

[Robby]

If you came to Dragon Ball Super expecting the exact same comedic elements from early volumes and side stories, those still exist but are toned down. This is because at some point, Toriyama’s central theme became more prevalent.

Have you read the Buu saga lately? Or watched Battle of the Gods? Or Jaco?

Toriyama's central theme is poop jokes. When Toriyama is allowed to be Toriyama he's all sorts of wacky and the characters are lively and full of energy and charm..

Super is pretty much constantly in Cell saga mode, when editorial was making him take it mega seriously and everything had to be nonstop high stakes and kept telling him every two chapters "no, the idea you had that was against expectations is wrong, do something more serious. You can't have a fat guy and an old man be the villains! No, it can't be pair of teenagers either!"

And Cell saga is the dullest, least interesting and least creative part of all 42 volumes of Dragonball outside of the Gohan development.

[gyuukarubi]

Have you read the Buu saga lately? Or watched Battle of the Gods? Or Jaco?

Toriyama's central theme is poop jokes. When Toriyama is allowed to be Toriyama he's all sorts of wacky and the characters are lively and full of energy and charm..

Super is pretty much constantly in Cell saga mode, when editorial was making him take it mega seriously and everything had to be nonstop high stakes and kept telling him every two chapters "no, the idea you had that was against expectations is wrong, do something more serious. You can't have a fat guy and an old man be the villains! No, it can't be pair of teenagers either!"

And Cell saga is the dullest, least interesting and least creative part of all 42 volumes of Dragonball outside of the Gohan development.

I think this just comes down to what aspects of Toriyama’s writing you prefer. Dragon Ball was primarily a gag manga in the beginning, but this changes in the Red Ribbon Army arc — which is super early on. Then DB becomes an action-comedy series.

Sure, Toriyama loves to make dumb jokes from time-to-time but by no means is this a “central theme.” There’s also a pretty clear distinction between gag mangaka Toriyama (Dr. Slump, Jaco, Sand Land) and action mangaka Toriyama (the majority of Dragon Ball).

Those gags exist in Super from varying degrees. Sure, Battle of the Gods was mostly a comedy — but what about the Toriyama-penned Resurrection of F? That’s mostly action with very little comedy.

Conversely, we still see dumb gags in Super... from Beerus’ crush on Ribrianne to Freeza attempting to gather the Dragon Balls... so that he can be a few centimeters taller.

I loved the Cell saga and I know I’m not alone in saying that. If you aren’t enjoying the ride, chalk it up to personal preference — but I think it’s crucial to recognize that DBS’ current tone doesn’t necessarily mean that Toriyama isn’t involved in it (and all evidence points towards heavy involvement).

[kouch_lee]

Sooo...there's both a new manga chapter and some Dragonball Fighter Z character reveals and I just...want to rant. Cause I'm just. So. Tired.

So, spoilers or something. I don't care.

First, the manga.

Spoiler:

So, I guess the Moro arc is over and...yaaaay¿? Goku for the win, am I right? So badass and impossibly unexpected, right? I'm so filled with joy after seeing UI Goku being a badass? I mean, he got to defeat Perfect Cell, something he failed at so many years ago, so it's...cathartic?

I'm drawing a blank here cause I felt N O T H I N G with these past 3-4 chapters after I got my fucking hopes up, so here's my best (and worst) of the arc:

1 - The "good" - Yamcha and Chaotzu did stuff! Krillin defeated bandana guy! Roshi defeated three girls while blindfolded! Gohan and Piccolo did some neat team attacks and thrased 73! Buu did something (at the start of the saga, AND it wasn't actually him but old kaio guy...but still...yay¿?) and Vegeta did something that wasn't just "punch the bad guy stronger than Goku punched him already".

2 - The Bad - Moro retreaded both Freezer, Demon King Piccolo AND Perfect Cell almost beat for beat, while having none of these villain's charisma. Goku saves the day but, WAIT, he's UI Goku now, so he's better and more badass! Saganbo was the head honcho of the bad guys, and his long awaited show-off consisted of...getting a free power up courtesy of Moro that put him above 17, Gohan, Piccolo and 18 for no reason, only to be thrashed by Goku (He's. So. Trong!). Then he....overdosed and died? Or something? Moro wasn't that strong but then he absorved 73 and he became Perfect Cell 2.0! So innovative!

Gohan ended up doing nothing. Piccolo tried way more than Gohan...but still did nothing. The androids having no KI was supposed to be a super awsome hidden ace...except they did nothing at all. They are not Goku, so why should they do anything?

3 - They did Android 13 Movie mixed with the first Broly movie. "Give the energy to Goku, he'll do something". Except, Uub gave him energy, so it's different and we should be hype for what's next. Yeah.

4 - There's a guy called Granola now that's going to...absorve 73 again? And he's going to be the strongestest of the universest? Or something?

Seriously, Dragon Ball writers, whoever you are - make me eat my words. Make something surprising. Different. Wathever. But I'll just bet on this - either Granola will eat 73 and gain all the accumulated powers of him + Moro and be a strongestest guy and Gogeta UI is gonna defeat him, or he works for someone who's gonna eat 73 and gain all accumulated powers of him + Moro and be a strongestest guy and Gogeta UI is gonna defeat him.

Surprise outcome - It's only going to take regular Goku UI to defeat him.

I'm so tired and jaded. I want to be proved wrong. I want the next arc to be great and me being a hater and a terrible Dragon Ball fan. But it's just so...tiresome. Like...am I R E A L L Y supposed to care about what comes next? For Real? Someone does? Someone cares?

And...Dragon Ball FighterZ last two Season 3 characters.

Spoiler:

Baby Vegeta and Gogeta SS4. That's...the end of season 3.

I keep thinking about this, like if someone came to me and said "you have the right to choose the last few character spots to fill for a Dragon Ball fighting game. What will you do?", and I'd be so goddamned nervous, not knowing who to choose, but Arc System Works are just like..."Easy! Base Goku, Base Vegeta, GT Goku, Goku Black, Gobu Black Fused with Zamasu, Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta, Vegito Blue, Gogeta Blue, UI Goku, Baby Vegeta and SS4 Gogeta.

Do these guys...even like Dragon Ball? A tiny bit? Is that all they can come up with? Seriously?

Raditz? General Blue? Tao Pai Pai? Robot Pilaf? Dabura? Zarbon? Nothing slightly creative?

Why is the most creative thing in the history of Dragon Ball games already been done by either Super Dragon Ball Z or Tenkaichi 3? No one with a tiny bit of interest in doing something interesting? No Cyborg Freeza with Shoulder Cannon? No Kinton Riding Chi Chi with Wind Fan? No Legendary Sword wielding Gohan? No Mecha Riding Bulma? No...Grandpa Gohan? Nothing, really? Just...another Gogeta and another Vegeta? For real?

I'm exceedingly salty right now. Sorry.

[maxterdexter]

Thing is that some of the different flavors do figth different enough to warant another slot, Black and Baby are other character taking over, young goku and OG vegeta have their untempered viciousness and should be very different by default, and that most of these character variations were the dlc, at least we got the bulk of cool characters in the base game.

[Green_vs_Red]

In the interest of fairness if they’re putting in multiple versions of Goku that does in fact indicate they like DragonBall.

As it’s been long established despite “issues” that Goku is pretty much the most integral part of DragonBall even if he’s a dumb naive hick

No Cyborg Freeza with Shoulder Cannon? No Kinton Riding Chi Chi with Wind Fan? No Legendary Sword wielding Gohan? No Mecha Riding Bulma? No...Grandpa Gohan? Nothing, really? Just...another Gogeta and another Vegeta? For real?

I know you’re being serious and I’m not trying to shit on your ideas but some of those ideas are.......a bit much? also some of those ideas wouldn’t go over well with certain people like those who always complain about the multiple different versions of certain characters..

[maxterdexter]

I would gladly take Bulma in a mech suit tho.

[Robby]

I know you’re being serious and I’m not trying to shit on your ideas but some of those ideas are.......a bit much?

They all sound good to me. And those exact things have appeared in other games, so...

also some of those ideas wouldn’t go over well with certain people like those who always complain about the multiple different versions of certain characters..

But THIRTEEN versions of Goku and Vegeta are fine? They're more than 1/3 of the roster. And 2 Broly's? (3 counting Kefla) Plus Bardock who LOOKS like Goku?

Give me Tao Pai Pai or Zarbon or Mecha Frieza or Mr. Satan or Raditz or Yajirobe or King Vegeta or Chichi or Great Saiayaman Gohan or Sword Gohan or some of the 80 characters introduced in the TOP that arent Jiren and girl Broly 3, someone else. Not ANOTHER Goku and Vegeta set.

[Green_vs_Red]

They all sound good to me. And those exact things have appeared in other games, so...

Even shoulder cannon mounted cyborg Freiza who never had a shoulder mounted cannon?

But THIRTEEN versions of Goku and Vegeta are fine?

Reason I said “to be fair” meaning no it isn’t. But of course they have to get all the cool shit in no matter how redundant it is.

I would gladly take Bulma in a mech suit tho.

I’d say just give her a cache of guns and gadgets like in Origins 2 but I don’t know if that’d go over too well.

[kouch_lee]

Even shoulder cannon mounted cyborg Freiza who never had a shoulder mounted cannon?

I introduce you to the glourious Frieza's Rocket Launcher. He appeared in the game Super Dragon Ball Z, and that wasn't his only new feature:

"...a new form for Mecha Frieza was created for the home release of the game. This new version of Mecha Frieza was advertised as an "all-new character" and was referred to as Full Armor Mecha Frieza in promotional material. This updated design includes a large rocket-launcher on his right shoulder, packs of explosives on his belt, and razor explosives down the length of his tail."

In this game, Gohan had the Z-Sword (if I recall correctly) and, as I said, Chi Chi used the Flying Nimbus AND the Magic Fan. The possibilities to do fun stuff are there, and as Robby already mentioned, most have already been explored. In Tenkaichi 3 we had Pilaf in a mech suit that could be fused with his henchmen's other mechs, General Blue doing telekinesis and stuff...and that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Out of all the things I mentioned in my post, the only one that doesn't exist in a videogame yet is Bulma in a mech suit...I think? Cause maybe it's in one of the DB Origins, I don't know. But I still mentioned that cause it's been floating around as an idea and, honestly, it sounds really cool, and something Toriyama might be down with and maybe even volunteer to design, which would be a super cool addition to a videogame.

Now, I get the rules of hype, I've seen the reactions on Twitter, and it does seem people, for some reason, were awaiting both Baby Vegeta and SS4 Gogeta. So I guess this was a good finantial decision on Bandai's end. But it still disapoints me so damn much...

Even someone as beloved as Master Roshi was chosen as DLC because of the massive popularity boost he gained during the ToP, otherwise I heavily doubt he would've ever appeared in the game. Same with Android 17 - he was part of 18's moveset and that seemed to be it for him, but then the ToP made him insanely popular, so...

So I guess if Zarbon, Dabura or Raditz don't reappear in the manga/anime, their chances are slim (even though I'm pretty sure this is already the last dlc season, so they're doomed anyways).

[Green_vs_Red]

I really kinda wanted to play Super DragonBall Z but of course stupid stuff happened there.

[Kizuchan]

So, now that the Moro arc is done, my take:

First arc in the Super manga I actually genuinely like. In fact, I'd say the finale is even great.

I really like that the finale could not have happened without any of the side characters.

If any of the Z fighters or Uub weren't there, Goku would not have had the energy to transform and face Moro again.

If Vegeta would not have learned Spirit Fission, they'd all be dead.

And if Goku's UI training didn't happen, none of this would not have been possible, either.

On a plot level, all of the big plot threads mattered and all of the contributions mattered because if there was even a little bit less energy there, Goku would probably not have been able to maintain UI.

This is probably my favourite arc finale in Super in general.

Even Moro got a good character arc finale by becoming an overblown blob that went insane from power.

In my eyes, the main theme of the arc was looking beyond your comfort zone. Vegeta had to focus his training on techniques and Goku had to *learn and work for* a non-rage based technique, something he hasn't done in forever. Not only that, but the narrative actually put in the effort to acknowledge Goku screwed up by making him apologize, something he only did in the Cell arc (and the Goku Black arc when he forgot the senzu).

I don't even mind that Meerus is okay because personally I've had that expectation in mind since Grandpa Gohan showed up and it was strengthened when Krillin was brought back after King Piccolo. But also, Meerus' death is actually pretty much the first one with consequences in forever because he lost his powers and is just a normal mortal now.

The writing is much more balanced than it tends to be. Yeah, Meerus being gone forever would've been better, but him having powers vs not having powers has a similar effect, in that now he can't fix possible problems coming next.

In other words, there is more flavour and direction to the writing.

[Sick_Fool]

Sooo...there's both a new manga chapter and some Dragonball Fighter Z character reveals and I just...want to rant. Cause I'm just. So. Tired.
And...Dragon Ball FighterZ last two Season 3 characters.

Spoiler:

Baby Vegeta and Gogeta SS4. That's...the end of season 3.

I keep thinking about this, like if someone came to me and said "you have the right to choose the last few character spots to fill for a Dragon Ball fighting game. What will you do?", and I'd be so goddamned nervous, not knowing who to choose, but Arc System Works are just like..."Easy! Base Goku, Base Vegeta, GT Goku, Goku Black, Gobu Black Fused with Zamasu, Blue Goku, Blue Vegeta, Vegito Blue, Gogeta Blue, UI Goku, Baby Vegeta and SS4 Gogeta.

Do these guys...even like Dragon Ball? A tiny bit? Is that all they can come up with? Seriously?

Raditz? General Blue? Tao Pai Pai? Robot Pilaf? Dabura? Zarbon? Nothing slightly creative?

Why is the most creative thing in the history of Dragon Ball games already been done by either Super Dragon Ball Z or Tenkaichi 3? No one with a tiny bit of interest in doing something interesting? No Cyborg Freeza with Shoulder Cannon? No Kinton Riding Chi Chi with Wind Fan? No Legendary Sword wielding Gohan? No Mecha Riding Bulma? No...Grandpa Gohan? Nothing, really? Just...another Gogeta and another Vegeta? For real?

I'm exceedingly salty right now. Sorry.

Replying to this only for the DBFZ stuff because I'm a big fan of the game and an Arcsys enthusiast (sorry if this off-topic). Why do players always blame Arcsys, the developer, and not Bandai Namco, the publisher and the one who approached Arcsys to develop the game in the first place, for character additions? It's safe to assume that Bandai Namco, the Dragonball IP holders themselves decide on this stuff (as represented by Tomoko Hiroki, the DBFZ producer herself on every major tournament/event) and not Arcsys because I highly doubt Arcsys has any say in who gets added in as they're just developing the game and just go with what the former wants. Saying that Arcsys do not care about Dragonball is very insulting to the hardwork and careful attention to detail they've put in DBFZ. How can you watch a single DBFZ match, marvel at the accurate in-game moveset depictions of and failtful references to their anime/manga counterparts with beautiful animations to boot, and even have the audacity to say that Arcsys do not respect the game simply because you didn't like the next character DLC? This is honestly by far the dumbest complaint/ciriticism against Arcsys I've seen yet.

[Kizuchan]

This DBS chapter really stood out to me.

Basically all of this is fairly new to Dragon Ball.

Granola's backstory is very Baby, but it's two-fold and more personal because he wants revenge against the Saiyans and Freeza and he's not something created by someone, like Baby is, he directly wants revenge.

He also has eye powers going like Kurapika and Sasuke. Fortunately, I already like him more than I've ever liked Sasuke because he immediately is established to have flaws. I take his sniping powers. I think interesting fights could be done with them.

I also like the underworld boss dude because he also had his motivations spelled out for us and there aren't many characters in DB who value intel. The design of the criminal group is a little Dragon Ball Heroes and I think not very specifically Toriyama, but I take them over the rehashed designs of the prisoners last arc.

We can have a sins of the father narrative here, too because the Great Ape that attacked his home was pretty obviously Bardock.

People dislike Dragon Ball Minus a lot because it apparently removed the part of him being a Saiyan because he expressed some care for his son, but he's clearly still a conquerer here according to this flashback.

None of these details are basically anything unique, but one of my favourite parts of Dragon Ball is just seeing where stuff goes when a bunch of new concepts are introduced.

The names are getting really on the nose, but I'm curious and on board with this.

I also like the introduction of new god techniques, as opposed to transformations and how Goku has to continue working to actually fully master UI now that he's learned to use it. Techniques as opposed to transformations are a much more fun direction to go in.