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Thread: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

  1. #4801

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    17 won the tournament. And they outnumbered Jiren 3 to 1 by the end. Goku and 17 could have just run around the edges for a couple seconds to wait for a time out, they didn't HAVE to win by beating Jiren. (Outside of shonen law.)

    Frieza helped due to the scenario he helped create. The final competiors might have been very different if he hadn't been there. Maybe Frost would have helped fight Jiren instead. Maybe Gohan still would have been in it if his final opponent strategy hadn't depended on Frieza. Maybe Goku could have tried a fusion. That was too big and varied a fight to judge, it wasn't about JUST overpowering one single guy for once and needing exactly that power level to top them..

    Maybe Tien taking out that one sniper is ultimately what really won it because that allowed character X to beat character Y later. Or whoever noticed the tiny guy (Piccollo?)

    And we have no idea how well someone like Buu would have done with his part splitting, turning enemies to candy, and near infinite stamina and healing powers.
    Buu was the original ringer, but he fell asleep for months. Freeza was the only person who could compete — his Golden Freeza transformation is stronger than most enemies. They needed that strength to save the universe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    If Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were all strong enough to be in the tournament, even if not to the end, 16 certainly was.
    Android 16 was an old model android. While he was strong, he’s not as strong as Buu or Golden Freeza.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    And all of Super is filler past the movies, just like GT was. "Canon" is only what they want it to be and limited only by their imaginations. Even without grabbing from the 3 decades of old characters, they could have easily made new ones. They clearly didn't give a single shit about Tien, and 17 was basically a new character for all intents and purposes that they just grabbed from the archive, so they might as well have tried making someone new or usng a different underserved character. Cripes, finally teach Kaioken to the humans or something.
    I totally understand your misconception now, Robby :)

    Did you know that while Toyotarou draws the Dragon Ball Super manga, it’s entirely written by Akira Toriyama?


    That’s what makes DBS special — it is the literal canon successor to the original Dragon Ball manga. DB canon is:
    - DB manga
    - Battle of Gods film
    - Resurrection F film
    - Broly Film
    - DBS manga

    So everything you’re reading is entirely canon. Does it makes sense why this development is so exciting?

    Even the abilities in DBS logically build off of ideas established in the original DB manga. Things only hinted at, but never explicitly stated.

    I personally believe that all of this content far surpasses any filler created by Toei or others to pad out the Dragon Ball story (the other movies, filler arcs, GT, etc.)

    EDIT: For context, here’s how every chapter of DBS is made. Toriyama’s input is HUGE.

  2. #4802

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    Did you know that while Toyotarou draws the Dragon Ball Super manga, [URL="https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon-ball-super-manga-toyotaro-akira-toriyama-work/"]it’s entirely written by Akira Toriyama?
    No, he doesn't, and neither article say that anywhere in there.

    Toriyama gives broad ideas, will work in a brainstorming sessions for a day, is used as a consultant, can veto things, does an occasional design.

    He does not write it. He doesn't pace it, or lay it out, or make the initial dialogue. Toyotaro does the whole chapter, Toriyama gives it a look over, then Toyotaro does the final inks and stuff. Same relationship he had with the anime.

    Toriyama is involved, so they can advertise that fact. It doesn't mean he's actually spending any time with it or putting thought into it during the creation process..


    Advising and consulting, sure. He's there for the brainstorming at the start to shape the overall outline for the next year. But that is not his writing the script out and deciding the pacing and the jokes and the drama bits it then having it drawn, even if you consider its going through the lens of another artist.

    He is at best broadly outlining, then someone else is writing and drawing it, then he does an editorial pass for some mild punch up. Maybe, MAYBE they're doing it marvel style and he's even doing the final dialogue. But it's not the same thing as writing it all himself.

    Like Stan Lee's entire script for Fantastic Four Galactus was basically "The fantastic four fight god." and then Kirby went wild for three issues and did all the stuff with the silver surfer and the meteor shower and designed galactus and did the events and the spectacle... and then at the end Stan Lee went back in and put the dialogue in there. SO it reflects his style and meshed with everything else, and they can say he's the writer, but all the actual work and storytelling was on Kirby. Stan Lee had literally nothing to do with the creation of the Silver Surfer, but he put the words in the character's mouths and was the "writer" on that issue so he officially gets full co-credit even though everyone knows he had nothing to do with the Surfer.


    Toriyama's Fingerprints were all over the movies, Battle of Gods especially. The pacing, the comedy, the weird asides, stupid shit like making Vegeta dance or the Pilof gang randomly being de-aged, Trunks hitting on Mai, everything about Beerus not being a serious villain but a guy that likes eating food... all Toriyama. He was all over it and it showed. Then the anime version of the exact same material where they added stuff without him was all... lesser, more poorly paced. Same with the F movie which also suffered after it moved off his script.. Even the Broly movie you get it with things like what Frieza and Bulma's new wishes are and the entire half hour opening sequence hardcore breaking the old anime canon.

    For the tournament of Power he designed a handful of characters, and they gladly showed off those sketches, and had input on Jiren's personality... but he didn't create the entire 80 character roster and 20 angels and Gods of Destruction or dictate how the flow of things would go... that's part of why the manga and anime varied so wildly there.

    The manga has none of his touch. None of the charm or personality or surprise, not the comedy or the weird shit, the pacing and suspense are different and more poorly handled.

    Involved and taking a pass at it? Sure. But it is NOT "entirely written" by him.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 09:25 AM.
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  3. #4803

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    No, he doesn't, and neither article doesn't say that anywhere in there.

    Toriyama gives broad ideas, will work in a brainstorming sessions, is used as a consultant, can veto things, does an occassional design.

    He does not write it. He doesn't pace it, or lay it out, or make the dialogue. Toyotaro does the whole chapter, Toriyama gives it a look over, then Toyotaro does the final inks and stuff.

    Toriyama is involved, so they can advertise that fact. It doesn't mean he's actually spending any time with it or putting thought into it.


    Toriyama's Fingerprints were all over Battle of Gods. The pacing, the comedy, the weird asides, stupid shit like making Vegeta dance or the Pilof gang randomly being de-aged, Trunks hitting on Mai, everything about Beerus not being a serious villain but a guy that likes eating food... all Toriyama. He was all over it and it showed. Even the Broly movie you get it with things like what Frieza's new wish is and the entire half hour opening sequence hardcore breaking the old anime canon.

    The manga has none of that. None of the charm or personality or surprise, not the comedy or the weird shit, the pacing and suspense are different and poorly handled. It is NOT Toriyama writing it.

    Advising and consulting, sure. But that is not his writing, even if you consider its going through the lens of another artist.
    Robby... I don’t know how you can argue with an article about the creation of the manga literally published just a month ago (10/14/2020). It’s okay to be incorrect, here — but it’s kind of silly to argue against what the creators are literally stating about their process.

    The process:
    - “Uchida works out the story alongside Toriyama and Toyotaro.”
    - “Toriyama and Toyotaro’s ideas complement and build upon each other in each meeting, rather than clash.”
    - “Toyotaro passes the draft onto Toriyama, who does another detailed check and makes edits.
    - “Power balance of story meetings: Toriyama = 100 million, Toyotaro = 10 million, Uchida = -100”
    - “Outlined another way, in terms of power balance with regard to story contribution, Toriyama = Goku, Toyotaro = Vegeta, Uchida = Yamcha.”
    - “2 days after completing the chapter, the three loop together again to plan the story for the next chapter.”

    This is literally what’s stated; can you really dispute Toriyama’s involvement? If so, I’d love to see your evidence.

  4. #4804
    Discovered Stowaway thegab's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Robby why don't you provide a source for your baseless assumptions

  5. #4805

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    This is literally what’s stated; can you really dispute Toriyama’s involvement? If so, I’d love to see your evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by thegab View Post
    Robby why don't you provide a source for your baseless assumptions
    I have eyes.

    I've read Dragonball. I've read Toriyama's other works. I've seen the movies Toriyama actively worked on.

    Super *consistently* doesn't read, pace, or feel like Toriyama. In either the manga or the anime.

    It feels like the anime fillers that have the gist of it, and get Toriyama's insight occasionally to course correct, but never quite the heart or spirit of it. The imagination, the spark, just isn't there. It's going completely by the numbers, the pacing is off, and it never reinvents or brings anything truly new to the table.

    Some of that is because its filtered through someone else, sure, but it's so consistently off, that either

    * Toriyama isn't actually writing a full script in advance
    * Toriyama is completely phoning it in
    * Toyotaro AND the anime staff are completely butchering it every single arc and went in wildly different directions despite Toriyama writing the core script.
    * Toriyama didn't start writing it till after the anime arcs were done

    (It also obsesses over very specific kinds of minutia and geek details that were never Toriyama's thing.)

    Companies inflate how much involvement the original creator has all the time in order to make it seem more official and approved. How much do you think Oda personally goes over the databooks? (He doesn't, he trusts his editors to handle it mostly.) How much influence does he have on the anime? (very little in the week to week) How much did he have to do with that Chopper spinoff? How much do you think Kishimoto worked on Boruto while he was working on his samurai book? What about the My Hero spinoff? How much do you think Toriyama was involved with "That Time I was reincarnated as Yamcha"? Going back to my earlier example, how much did Stan Lee actually have to do with the creation of the SIlver Surfer? How much involvement did Stan Lee have on every single Marvel Book in the 60's and 70s, when they all had "Stan Lee Presents" in front of them? (He wasn't even editor on all the books, certainly wasn't the writer, but he still "presented" everything) How much do Eastman and/or Laird work on any given new Ninja Turtle project in a given decade?

    Toriyama's involved, yes. But he is NOT writing the manga as a full script or heavily choreographing the fights or any of that before handing it off, at the very least not in the capacity he once wrote it, because it shows in every scene and chapter in a hundred different ways.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 09:52 AM.
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  6. #4806

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I have eyes.

    I've read Dragonball. I've read Toriyama's other works. I've seen the movies Toriyama actively worked on.

    Super *consistently* doesn't read, pace, or feel like Toriyama. In either the manga or the anime.

    It feels like the anime fillers that have the gist of it, and get Toriyama's insight occasionally to course correct, but never quite the heart or spirit of it. The imagination, the spark, just isn't there. It's going completely by the numbers, the pacing is off, and it never reinvents or brings anything truly new to the table.

    Some of that is because its filtered through someone else, sure, but it's so consistently off, that either

    * Toriyama isn't actually writing a full script in advance
    * Toriyama is completely phoning it in
    * Toyotaro AND the anime staff are completely butchering it every single arc and went in wildly different directions despite Toriyama writing the core script.
    * Toriyama didn't start writing it till after the anime arcs were done

    (It also obsesses over very specific kinds of minutia and geek details that were never Toriyama's thing.)

    Companies inflate how much involvement the original creator has all the time in order to make it seem more official and approved. How much do you think Oda personally goes over the databooks? (He doesn't, he trusts his editors to handle it mostly.) How much influence does he have on the anime? (very little in the week to week) How much did he have to do with that Chopper spinoff? How much do you think Kishimoto worked on Boruto while he was working on his samurai book? What about the My Hero spinoff? How much do you think Toriyama was involved with "That Time I was reincarnated as Yamcha"? Going back to my earlier example, how much did Stan Lee actually have to do with the creation of the SIlver Surfer? How much involvement did Stan Lee have on every single Marvel Book in the 60's and 70s, when they all had "Stan Lee Presents" in front of them? (He wasn't even editor on all the books, certainly wasn't the writer, but he still "presented" everything) How much do Eastman and/or Laird work on any given new Ninja Turtle project in a given decade?

    Toriyama's involved, yes. But he is NOT writing the manga as a full script or heavily choreographing the fights or any of that before handing it off, at the very least not in the capacity he once wrote it, because it shows in every scene and chapter in a hundred different ways.
    Robby, I understand that in the past, this is how it worked — but the creators are outlining something different. Your assumptions are coming from how this was done with other series. But Dragon Ball Super is its own entity and I recommend you do some research into how it's made.

    I think a lot of the other Dragon Ball forums can speak more on this, but it's clear that Toriyama is heavily involved in this — and Goku's latest ability is an extension of the "Spirit Control" introduced on Planet Yardrat. Please keep an open mind and try to understand that this is the successor to Dragon Ball.

    Also, the anime and manga are entirely different entities with differing levels of involvement on Toriyama's end. The three most recent movies? All had heavy involvement with Toriyama. The DBS manga? Just as heavy.

  7. #4807

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Toriyama definitely does not write or draw the series, this is indisputable. Super is, however, canon regardless of how anyone feels about it or the direction of the story.

  8. #4808

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I agree with Robby that this does not feel like Toriyama at all. It feels like a fanfiction written by a super fan. Dragon Ball as a franchise is now like European and American comics where another author takes over with approval from the creator/the one that has the rights to write more adventures.

  9. #4809

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    I'm glad you've bought into the advertising that says Toriyama is super involved. It means the editorial team has done their job and convinced you and you can be happy and content thinking it s a fully authorized official new Toriyama work..

    But what's ended up on the page just doesn't bear it out.

    If Toriyama IS as involved as you insist, then he's incredibly watered down and doing the worst work of his career, and Toyotaro is doing a massive disservice to his script and missing all the quirks and nuances and pacing that make him Toiryama. It might as well just be the anime filler staff.

    And its not like its been 20 years since we last saw Toriyama work on anything, he did Jaco just a couple years ago and his fingerprints are clear on the movies. He's still himself with his style. None of that is apparent in Super.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 08:12 PM.
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  10. #4810

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Yeah, but Tomioka Atsuhiro is a better writer than Toriyama so the anime is often much better, especially when their hands aren't so tied by weird restrictions on what kind of shit they can and cannot do.
    She/Her

  11. #4811

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    ^ Like what ?
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  12. #4812

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    I'm glad you've bought into the advertising that says Toriyama is super involved. It means the editorial team has done their job and convinced you and you can be happy and content thinking it s a fully authorized official new Toriyama work..

    But what's ended up on the page just doesn't bear it out.

    If Toriyama IS as involved as you insist, then he's incredibly watered down and doing the worst work of his career, and Toyotaro is doing a massive disservice to his script and missing all the quirks and nuances and pacing that make him Toiryama. It might as well just be the anime filler staff.

    And its not like its been 20 years since we last saw Toriyama work on anything, he did Jaco just a couple years ago and his fingerprints are clear on the movies. He's still himself with his style. None of that is apparent in Super.
    I just want you to recognize that you're choosing to mistrust the words of the creators, simply calling it "advertising." If that's the case, then is there any convincing you? The evidence is pretty clear, but maybe you know something that I don't.

    Dragon Ball Super's manga does feel like Dragon Ball to me. I've been reading for over two decades and it feels much more like Dragon Ball than the other properties. Doesn't seem watered down and I think this is among the best work of his career. Agree to disagree, I suppose.

  13. #4813
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by gyuukarubi View Post
    I think a lot of the other Dragon Ball forums can speak more on this, but it's clear that Toriyama is heavily involved in this — and Goku's latest ability is an extension of the "Spirit Control" introduced on Planet Yardrat. Please keep an open mind and try to understand that this is the successor to Dragon Ball.
    It's quite the opposite.

    The callback you're referring to here is in fact exactly the kind of example that Robby is talking about because there's no fucking way in this WORLD Toriyama remembers these creatures whatsoever.

    One thing I like about the SUPER manga is that it often does callbacks like these--it takes old characters and settings and gives them some new way to be a part of the world.
    It suggests a kind of internal logic to Dragon Ball as a setting... that is almost antithetical to the spirit of Dragon Ball. I would've appreciated SUPER as a child!

    But the repeated jarring moments that explain why This Time they can't do The Thing they did last time to deal with this particular threat, or the REALLY old techniques or characters making a new reappearance, who Toriyama probably doesn't even remember the names for, they aren't Toriyama in style at all. Toriyama is not a detail oriented mangaka!

    And I popped over to one of the Dragon Ball forums you mentioned to prove this point.

    These are quotes from interviews he's given over the years. And this is just a small sampling of things Toriyama forgot over the decades.
    Read his own words!
    (He forgot who Taopaipai was, who Lunch was, who Goten was, that Super Saiyan 2 exists, that he created Broly, etc.)

    That he forgot them isn't necessarily a bad thing: it's just aren't important to Toriyama at all. There's so many weird quirks and bits of humor that SUPER doesn't have, but strange deep cuts to characters from thirty years ago? Back and forth banter about spirit fission? Oh it has that!
    It's one of but many clues that suggest Toriyama isn't steering the ship, but a superfan of his work is.

    And it shows!
    Last edited by Silence; November 22nd, 2020 at 09:30 PM.
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  14. #4814

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Well I was going to say pretty much what Silence just said, but he beat me to it.

    Toriryama just isn't the sort of guy that would go "Okay, lets go back to that location I mentioned 30 years ago in one panel and explore the culture of Yardarat".

    He's the guy that goes "Okay, Goku trained in the afterlife and now there's super 3 where they have no eyebrows and big hair, and fusion exists. But you have to do a stupid dance for it. And it possibly makes you look like a fat guy or an old man. ANd Gohan is going to put on a superhero costume and do sentai poses while he goes to high school."

    We've had FOUR new ultimate forms in a row that are all just hair color swaps (including Begeta's blue on blue) because Toriyama is being his most creative and interested? Or because they want the merchandise to keep looking like the characters and not get too weird? Why are Goten and Trunks still looking like 8 year olds when they should be teenagers by now?

    It's all very stale rehashes of what came before, it doesn't bring anything actually new to the table that Toriyama didn't introduce on BotGs or Jaco.

    Why does the timeline refuse to go to where the manga actually ended with Uub joining the group? Why does it refuse to give us an actual rematch fight with Beerus? (Who is responsible for Vegeta's home being destroyed) They don't have to do a 10 year timeskip after that to GT era where Krllin and Bulma are super old, but move it forward. Introduce actual new characters and concepts and change the status quos and do something unexpected, not just "things continue exactly as they have for decades now with absolutely nothing changing for ANY of the characters." That's the kind of stagnation and holding pattern and predictability that Toriyama just wouldn't do left to his own devices. Heck, Goku is a space alien and we're going to have a space arc was a new thing at the time that the series didn't have for its first half..

    Super has an internal consistency and sense of history and minutia and a way of hitting the old beats that are good for fans, and thats 100% editorial wrangling and not in any way how Toriyama works or thinks.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 10:14 PM.
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  15. #4815

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    It's quite the opposite.

    The callback you're referring to here is in fact exactly the kind of example that Robby is talking about because there's no fucking way in this WORLD Toriyama remembers these creatures whatsoever.

    One thing I like about the SUPER manga is that it often does callbacks like these--it takes old characters and settings and gives them some new way to be a part of the world.
    It suggests a kind of internal logic to Dragon Ball as a setting... that is almost antithetical to the spirit of Dragon Ball. I would've appreciated SUPER as a child!

    But the repeated jarring moments that explain why This Time they can't do The Thing they did last time to deal with this particular threat, or the REALLY old techniques or characters making a new reappearance, they aren't Toriyama in style at all. Toriyama is not a detail oriented mangaka.

    And I popped over to one of the Dragon Ball forums you mentioned to prove this point.

    These are quotes from interviews he's given over the years. And this is just a small sampling of things Toriyama forgot over the decades.
    Read his own words!
    (He forgot who Taopaipai was, who Lunch was, who Goten was, that Super Saiyan 2 exists, that he created Broly, etc.)

    That he forgot them isn't necessarily a bad thing: it's just aren't important to Toriyama at all. There's so many weird quirks and bits of humor that SUPER doesn't have, but strange deep cuts to characters from thirty years ago? Back and forth banter about spirit fission? Oh it has that!
    It's one of but many clues that suggest Toriyama isn't steering the ship, but a superfan of his work is.

    And it shows!
    These are more assumptions based on past behavior; the quotes I reference were literally published for the first time a month ago on October 14th.

    Yes, Toriyama forgot characters/abilities in the past... but this is because he created Dragon Ball before the age of the internet. Fans can help with those details now. Even Oda routinely forgets One Piece attacks and is thankful for the existence of fan wiki pages so that he can remember these details from years ago.

    I think that these assumptions are well intentioned and inferences made from past behavior... but people change, as does the world and technology.

    Since the people directly creating the series are directly talking about how chapters are made, I’m more inclined to believe them over internet fans — who are not present at all for any of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Well I was going to say pretty much what Silence just said, but he beat me to it.

    Toriryama just isn't the sort of guy that would go "Okay, lets go back to that location I mentioned 30 years ago in one panel and explore the culture of Yardarat".

    He's the guy that goes "Okay, Goku trained in the afterlife and now there's fusion. But you have to do a stupid dance for it. And it possibly makes you look like a fat guy or an old man"
    Robby, do you know Toriyama personally? Or are these assumptions you're making based on what happened in the past? I think it's important to pay attention to how you're coming to these conclusions. You speak as if you're in Toriyama's brain or are a clairvoyant when we know these aren't true — people can change their behaviors and habits. Writers change their styles all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Super has an internal consistency and sense of history that are good for fans, but aren't in any way how Toriyama works or thinks or plots. It doesn't bring anything new or radically reashape old things, it just regurgitates and repeats old stuff, beat for beat. We've all been mocking how this entire Moro finale is basically a scene for scene remake of the Cell fight.

    Ad that's just one aspect of it. It all wrings wrong. It's all stuff a hardcore fan would suggest and then Toriyama would shrug and go "sure, why not to".
    Most Dragon Ball fights end the same way. That's... fairly consistent. They just have a special finisher at the end (e.g. punch-through-the-villain, Kamehameha, Genki Dama, Super Saiyan, father-son Kamehameha, Genki Dama with Super Saiyan, etc.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Here, look at this book right here.

    It says that it s astory J.K. Rowling worked on! Her name is the largest one there! So she MUST have been super involved with it! Even though the world doesn't mesh with the written one and the characters are all out of character and it completely breaks her own time travel rules by allowing multi decade time travel,, clearly she worked heavily on it and was super involved! It says it was a story by her! Totally not something she just rubber stamped and collected a check on.
    Robby, this is completely unrelated property and it does not say what you are claiming.

    It clearly says "Based on an original story by JK Rowling, John Tiffany, and Jack Thorne. A play by Jack Thorne."

    Jack Thorne is the writer, but J.K. Rowling had involvement with developing the story. Here is a detailed article about that process. We already know that she's created inconsistencies in her world before, so logical errors are to be expected. To err is human.

    What is different with Dragon Ball Super's manga is that you have the creators literally telling you how they made it and the level of involvement that Toriyama has.
    Last edited by gyuukarubi; November 22nd, 2020 at 09:49 PM.

  16. #4816
    is Stolen Silence's Avatar
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    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    You: "because of the old references, I know it's Toriyama!"

    Us: "that's actually not like Toriyama at all"

    You: "people change! maybe!"

    Toriyama in 2016: "It's my policy to try to forget things once they're over."


    (also from that link you told me to go find: a link to an interview where Toriyama talks about his writing process and just making fun shit up as he goes along)

    Look, it's cool that you're enjoying SUPER and there's nothing wrong with that, but...
    ... I'd say give the series a deeper read: the parts that aren't like Toriyama at all stick out like a sore thumb.

    (... I'd say this, but you also like weirdly super insisted based off random nothing that Nico Robin is gonna betray the Strawhats again,
    so maybe your dragon radar can be a little off!)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wagomu View Post
    There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

  17. #4817

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Silence View Post
    You: "because of the old references, I know it's Toriyama!"

    Us: "that's actually not like Toriyama at all"

    You: "people change! maybe!"

    Toriyama in 2016: "It's my policy to try to forget things once they're over."

    https://gyazo.com/fe27a9c6b4757d9691c14031f9e2de33https://gyazo.com/fe27a9c6b4757d9691c14031f9e2de33https://gyazo.com/fe27a9c6b4757d9691c14031f9e2de33https://i.gyazo.com/fe27a9c6b4757d96...31f9e2de33.png
    (also from that link you told me to go find: a link to an interview where Toriyama talks about his writing process and just making fun shit up as he goes along)

    Look, it's cool that you're enjoying SUPER and there's nothing wrong with that, but...
    ... I'd say give the series a deeper read: the parts that aren't like Toriyama at all stick out like a sore thumb.

    (... I'd say this, but you also like weirdly super insisted based off random nothing that Nico Robin is gonna betray the Strawhats again,
    so maybe your dragon radar can be a little off!)
    Lol, nice jab re: Robin. Thanks for bringing in something completely unrelated to turn a civil discussion into a personal attack.

    For you naysayers, here is a literal example of how Toriyama edits Toyotaro’s drafts... as stated in the previously mentioned article.

    It’s not JUST the story... it’s the art, too.

  18. #4818

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Those are super clear example of "Toyotaro does the story himself... (based on the outline both he and the anime got) and THEN when he's DONE Toriyama goes over it"

    Toriyama is editing it after the draft is done, he isn't creating it. If those three pages are the standard, he's not dictating the pacing, or the story, or the jokes, or the character moments, or the flow or fixing panel composition for better overall fight scenes. He's just like "your posing sucks, fix it up before you ink it. ANd punch up this line of dialogue."

    If he was writing it from the start, or doing layouts, you wouldn't see that much dialogue changing, or panels where he goes "replace Krillin with Beerus here".

    That's entirely the Marvel method there. Writer says "have a story where this happens", then the artist does all the work on it, then at the end the writer comes in on the finished work and does the dialogue so it matches his brand.

    That is a legit creation method, it is collaborative, and american comics thrive on it. But it is NOT Toriyama doing all the writing.


    Yes, authors can change. But we have FORTY years of history and video games and stories of how Toriyama works and interviews and what he does when left to his own devices. He's not going to suddenly radically change his entire approach now in his mid 60's for this story if he's actually fully in control of it.

    He's looking at it enough that he's okay with stamping his name on it and collecting a check, he's not creating it from scratch and writing it fully. He's providing a very loose outline, that the new guy creates off of, then doing a pass on it before it gets finalized. Its involvement, but its not anywhere near the whole creation process.
    Last edited by Robby; November 22nd, 2020 at 10:36 PM.
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  19. #4819

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Why does the timeline refuse to go to where the manga actually ended with Uub joining the group? Why does it refuse to give us an actual rematch fight with Beerus? (Who is responsible for Vegeta's home being destroyed)
    What would be at stake for the rematch though especially since it's been long established that Vegeta and Goku don't give all that much of a damn their home planet was destroyed and their families killed in the process....Goku at least has the excuse of being too young to remember his life on Planet Vegeta.

    Just have a rematch over Beerus slapping Bulma and being one of many people to humble Goku?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284




  20. #4820

    Default Re: Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Those are super clear example of "Toyotaro does the story himself... (based on the outline both he and the anime got) and THEN when he's DONE Toriyama goes over it"Toriyama is editing it after the draft is done, he isn't creating it. He's not dictating the pacing, or the story or the flow or fixing panel composition. He's just like "your posing sucks, fix it up before you ink it. ANd punch up this line of dialogue." If he was writing it from the start, you wouldn't see that much dialogue changing, or panels where he goes "replace Krillin with Beerus here". Yes, authors can change yes. But we have FORTY years of history and stories of how Toriyama works and interviews. He's not going to suddenly radically change his entire approach now in his mid 60's for this story if he's actually fully in control of it.He's looking at it enough that he's okay with stamping his name on it and collecting a check, he's not creating it from scratch and writing it fully. He's providing an outline, that the new guy creates off of, then doing a pass on it before it gets finalized. Its involvement, but its not the whole creation process.
    But Robby, we know the process — it was outlined in that article.
    Step 1: Toriyama and Toyotaro outline the story of each new chapter together. Toriyama has the most input, then Toyotaro, and Uchida might help a little bit.
    Step 2: Toyotaro drafts the chapter.
    Step 3: Toriyama makes detailed edits to both Toyotaro’s art and dialogue.
    Step 4: Toyotaro finalizes.
    Step 5: Publication.
    Step 6: Repeat.

    I’ve given you direct quotes from the editor and a concrete example of Toriyama’s edits. He’s doing this every chapter. You haven’t disproven anything and only are relying on examples from other pieces of media to support your claims.

    Doesn’t that seem a bit silly? Is it so hard to admit when you’re incorrect about something? Nobody knows everything and we’re all wrong from time to time. But it should be clear at this point that the DBS manga is canon and that Toriyama is heavily involved in its creation.

    EDIT: If your qualm is with my phrasing “entirely written by Toriyama,” I meant that every chapter and the direction of the entire series was written by Toriyama. You’re right if you posit that not every line of dialogue is written by him — but that was never my point. My point was that the DBS Manga is canon because Toriyama has written the story and lines of dialogue from the beginning — and it’s always seemed this way.

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