Dragonball Discussion Kai: Broly but this time it's not Broly

[BingBang]

I really liked this episode. The drama, the pace... I imagine Moro absorbing Meerus power and attacking the other angels/gods of destruction. I like this idea of starting a war between Angels and Demons.

[Retro]

Gotta admit, this does feel like a legit struggle everyone's going through and I like that everyone's fighting the main baddie altogether for once, even if they have to go down to do it. Kinda agree with Masako though, please stop jobbing Gohan and let the poor guy be useful. Just cause he's not as fight happy as Goku doesn't mean you can't make his fighting style interesting with his smarts.

But yeah darkest hour and all and literaly divine intervention having to be used to save the heroes. Very curious where this is gonna lead.

[Coookie]

Can someone please edit the newest chapter and replace the last page with Goku finally getting some character development and simply offing Moro?

[Kizuchan]

I really liked the art and storyboarding of this chapter. The Super manga is generally pretty average when it comes to that stuff.

I like that the story committed to the principles of UI instead of defaulting to rage.

I don't think there has ever been extended focus on Goku sparing villains, so I'm okay with the story possibly going there. He never had an arc about that, the closest being back in RoF.

And this could still lean into that or have Goku fail for a different reason, like UI running out or Moro's magic.

[Robby]

So twitter informs me apparently part of the next chapter has released a teaser version of itself, with pencils and not finished inks for... whatever reason. Hype I guess?

https://dragonball.news/news/n201013065.html

And uhm...

sort of but not really spoilery

Spoiler:

I hope Toyotaro is trolling and those pages are fake.

I don't think they are.

I think this is legit the turn the story was going to take because of course it was.

And ugggh.

Actual spoiler

Spoiler:

Dammit Goku.

[JulieYBM]

Spoiler:

This arc is already completely unwieldy but god, I hope Gokuu kills Moro for good in this chapter.

[Ubiq]

Again, Super Goku makes a lot more sense as a continuation of TFS Goku than DBZ Goku.

[Coookie]

Screw Goku. I wish the other characters would hold him accountable for his selfishness for once.

[gyuukarubi]

Very surprised that no one mentioned the ch... that was the best finisher we’ve seen in a long time. Giant Goku with the divine energy!

Also appreciated the appearance of Oob and it was nice how Dende was the only person who knew what happened. Also, I wonder if Vegeta absorbed some of Merus’ divine energy via fission?

A+. This is a legendary chapter... an instant classic.

[Sâuza]

Guy with other people's powers becomes huge and threatens to explode but Goku saves the day by having Vegeta throw a Genkidama -which energy came from friends- at him.

I've seen these episodes before !

[Robby]

Glad you enjoyed it but I found it to be really dumb and insulting Legend of Khora season 2 nonsense.

Spoiler:

Giant ki power ranger aura mode? Really? A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous.

Also, their solution was basically "absorb a spirit bomb" which movie... 7? did as a solution almost 30 years ago.

And for all that using Uub is a nice touch and fair given that we know the wider context of the DB timeline, its a bit of a copout and a cheat here since *this* story never really mentioned or hinted at or adressed it anyway? Yeah we can think about it and it makes sense, but for THIS story it's wonky as all get out. Unless the very next story finally skips ahead another couple years to that tournament finally...

Nice to see Vegeta's technique work out though and save the day at least, even if he is basically just making a discount spirit bomb now along with having learned the teleport...

And after all that repeating of the exact same mistake as Frieza and Cell... they still had to kill the guy in the end and Goku will learn nothing.

[gyuukarubi]

Glad you enjoyed it but I found it to be really dumb and insulting Legend of Khora season 2 nonsense.

Spoiler:

Giant ki power ranger aura mode? Really? A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous.

Also, their solution was basically "absorb a spirit bomb" which movie... 7? did as a solution almost 30 years ago.

And for all that using Uub is a nice touch and fair given that we know the wider context of the DB timeline, its a bit of a copout and a cheat here since *this* story never really mentioned or hinted at or adressed it anyway? Yeah we can think about it and it makes sense, but for THIS story it's wonky as all get out. Unless the very next story finally skips ahead another couple years to that tournament finally...

Nice to see Vegeta's technique work out though and save the day at least, even if he is basically just making a discount spirit bomb now along with having learned the teleport...

And after all that repeating of the exact same mistake as Frieza and Cell... they still had to kill the guy in the end and Goku will learn nothing.

You may dislike it, but the precedent had already been set and this move makes perfect sense. Gotenks already showed us that it’s possible to transform your ki into a corporeal form.

And as far as giants go... are we forgetting about the Oozaru transformation? This seems to be a more divine, advanced alternative :)

And yes, Goku still shows his enemies mercy and puts everyone on Earth in danger ... again. But those flaws are consistent with his character. He changed Vegeta’s heart and he still thinks he can change the hearts of his enemies. Thinking about this from a purely allegorical stance, Dragon Ball is forcing us to consider whether or not mercy is a “good thing.”

When our worst enemies feign surrender, should we relent and show mercy? Goku wants to believe that everyone is inherently good deep down. But he knows nothing of their abyssal hatred, cowardice, and commitment to victory over honor.
That seems to be his final test.

And lo and behold, we as readers shouldn’t be one to judge. Who ended up saving Goku’s ass this time?

Oob. Goku’s final wish at the end of the Boo arc. Just as how mercy to Vegeta has saved his ass countless times — and how showing mercy to Piccolo has as well. Even being merciful to Freeza, a hateful and genocidal earmonger, resulted in them saving the universe in the Tournament of Power.

With Oob, I actually really appreciate how it was handled here. Feels like a deus ex machina to Goku, but he literally receives the powers of God after a previous investment he has yet to realize.

Regarding Vegeta, his character arc has always been one of redemption and growth. He’s learning techniques that Goku does not — while also picking up ones to keep him competitive. I dig it.

[Robby]

And as far as giants go... are we forgetting about the Oozaru transformation? This seems to be a more divine, advanced alternative :)

I literally said
"A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous."

Tiny guy fighting a giant is cool. Two giants duking it out when one of them is just doing it with a magic aura transformation is dumb.

And lo and behold, we as readers shouldn’t be one to judge. Who ended up saving Goku’s ass this time?

Oob. Goku’s final wish at the end of the Boo arc.

He still had to 100% destroy and murder Buu to get there. And Goku has quite a lengthy body count under his belt.

Its fine that the hero gives the villain a chance to run away and live to fight another day after stewing on their defeats for a while. Most of Goku's friends are former enemies. Its not fine when he keeps giving them goddamn senzu beans to pop them back to full power before they've had any time at all to reflect and they're still in full genocide mode and having mental break downs so that they can then blow themselves up and kill everyone.

Even being merciful to Freeza, a hateful and genocidal earmonger, resulted in them saving the universe in the Tournament of Power.

They had literally killed Frieza on three different occasions prior to that point. (four if you count the old movies. And his brother twice.) And he's still going around enslaving people and causing horrors across the galaxy and setting Broly against them and murdering Broly's father. He helped in one fight for half an hour, that does NOT excuse or forgive what he did or continues to do.

The could have resurrected Android 16, or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help. Or not blown up the time chamber and been able to use Buu. Or looked past their own planet if Beerus had gotten off his ass. The story had to bend over backwards to contrive to throwing Frieza in there.

Frieza only gets a pass because he's a liked character, not because he actually deserves it.

(Also in a free for al tournament you have a butterly effect thign going on. Sure Frieza helped in the decisive final bit, but if he hadn't been there would other eliminations have gone differently? Does he really warrant more credit than Gohan or Vegeta or Piccollo? Tien did almost nothing but he still stopped that one guy that was giving everyone trouble.)

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi? Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn? Or any of the countless minions those guys had? None of those guys ever got second chances. 16 certainly absolutely deserved it, at least as much as 17 did. ANd the GInyus weren't that bad...

[gyuukarubi]

[QUOTE=Robby;4093919]I literally said
"A little guy can fight a big guy in Dragonball but kaiju fights are ridiculous."

Tiny guy fighting a giant is cool. Two giants duking it out when one of them is just doing it with a magic aura transformation is dumb.[/i]
I’m not trying to be argumentative — I totally respect your opinion. That was simply my rationale as to why I enjoyed the chapter. It felt really “Dragon Ball” — way more than GT ever did.

He still had to 100% destroy and murder Buu to get there. And Goku has quite a lengthy body count under his belt.

Its fine that the hero gives the villain a chance to run away and live to fight another day after stewing on their defeats for a while. Most of Goku's friends are former enemies. Its not fine when he keeps giving them goddamn senzu beans to pop them back to full power before they've had any time at all to reflect and they're still in full genocide mode and having mental break downs so that they can then blow themselves up and kill everyone.

True — Goku HAS killed before. He’s very selfish — he just wants to fight strong guys and add them to the team. Kinda like Kaido, actually.

They had literally killed Frieza on three different occasions prior to that point. (four if you count the old movies. And his brother twice.) And he's still going around enslaving people and causing horrors across the galaxy and setting Broly against them and murdering Broly's father. He helped in one fight for half an hour, that does NOT excuse or forgive what he did or continues to do.

I’m not saying that it excuses anything Freeza has done. I’m simply stating that it’s an objective fact that Goku and Freeza saved the universe.

The could have resurrected Android 16, or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help. Or not blown up the time chamber and been able to use Buu. Or looked past their own planet if Beerus had gotten off his ass. The story had to bend over backwards to contrive to throwing Frieza in there.

Pikuhan isn’t canon and Android 16 wasn’t strong enough. Freeza and Buu are the only villains strong enough to compete with Goku and Vegeta.

Frieza only gets a pass because he's a liked character, not because he actually deserves it.

I saw it as a “necessary evil.”

(Also in a free for al tournament you have a butterly effect thign going on. Sure Frieza helped in the decisive final bit, but if he hadn't been there would other eliminations have gone differently? Does he really warrant more credit than Gohan or Vegeta or Piccollo? Tien did almost nothing but he still stopped that one guy that was giving everyone trouble.)

I think he does... no one else had a chance against Jiren.

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi? Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn? Or any of the countless minions those guys had? None of those guys ever got second chances. 16 certainly absolutely deserved it, at least as much as 17 did. ANd the GInyus weren't that bad...

The movie villains don’t exist in the canon universe except Broly, and Goku + Vegeta only meet him because of Freeza. Those other guys just aren’t strong enough or just pure evil. Maybe Cell, but he’s entirely self-interested and could not care less about earth struggles.

Freeza is pure evil, but also very selfish and loves life. Also, dominance. It probably was a bad idea bringing him back to life, as he’s still destroying planets.

There’s an overall amorality to that, however — given what we know of Gods and Angels in their world. Beerus is a god of destruction; arguably worse than all of those guys. Even MORE self interested too, haha

[Raffy]

Buu Saga: gohan buildup, gohan buildup annnnd goku finishes him off
Moro: vegeta buildup, vegeta buildup annnd goku finishes him off

[KageKageKing]

Man how about that one time Goku pulled that same stupid stunt in the Cell Games when the forum was down?

[Green_vs_Red]

The could have resurrected Android 16,

Or King Kai......

or gotten charaters like Pikuhan to help.

Is he even canon?

For all that Frieza is being given a fifth chance, why did they never bring back Rabbit Boss or the Red Ribbon generals or King Piccollo or Raditz or Nappa or the Ginyus or 16 or Cell or Spopovich or Babidi?

I like to think they didn't bring back Rabbit due to the fact that no one remembers he was left stuck on the moon.....and was still there when Roshi blew it up. Bringing back Nappa would be hella funny though if only because of how he and Vegeta would get along.

Any of the movie villains like Wheelo or Slug or Cooler or original Broly or Bojack or Hildegarn?

Robby are you okay?

ANd the GInyus weren't that bad...

Sure if we overlook Recoome damn near paralyzing Vegeta, Gohan, & Krillin.

[JulieYBM]

I feel like I would have liked this chapter if the arc hadn't been so fucking terrible since the end of the Namek portion. I really wish Moro had had more depth to his character. :(

[Robby]

Is he even canon?

No. But neither is any of Super past the movies. Heck, even old stuff long accepted like History of Bardock and History of Trunks aren't canon anymore either. It's all made up by the animation staff, with Toriyama occasionally throwing in a little input on designs, just as he did for the old movies. . They made a roster of 80 brand new characters to throw into the thing, and made an abusive ongoing joke about Yamcha being worthless and threw away Tien after he got one fight (when the other members all got BS power ups)

And while anything that happened in ol DBZ is questionable at this point since Kai cut most of the filler, it IS a character in the roster, and they go back to stuff like Super 4 all the time in the spinoff media even though GT is certainly non-canon by now. (Especially in Heroes)

They can do whatever they want. They weren't limited to bringing back THAT character. They had three decades of old characters they could have gone to, (Hey, Aralae is joked powered super powerful. Deviman could have blown up *a* opponent before getting disqualified.) or invented someone new. Heck, Android 17 was new for all intents and purposes given he hadn't been seen except for one scene since Cell.

Sure if we overlook Recoome damn near paralyzing Vegeta, Gohan, & Krillin.

We overlook Vegeta paralyzing Goku and his minion killing half the crew. We overlook Piccollo shattering every lib in Goku's body and then later actually killing him.

Burter and Jeice didn't seem that bad. ANd Ginyu's body switch mechanic probably would have worked nicely at the tourney up to a point. maybe not on Jiren and Hit, but certainly some of the lower tiers.

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

I’m simply stating that it’s an objective fact that Goku and Freeza saved the universe.

17 won the tournament. And they outnumbered Jiren 3 to 1 by the end. Goku and 17 could have just run around the edges for a couple seconds to wait for a time out, they didn't HAVE to win by beating Jiren. (Outside of shonen law.)

Frieza helped due to the scenario he helped create. The final competiors might have been very different if he hadn't been there. Maybe Frost would have helped fight Jiren instead. Maybe Gohan still would have been in it if his final opponent strategy hadn't depended on Frieza. Maybe Goku could have tried a fusion. That was too big and varied a fight to judge, it wasn't about JUST overpowering one single guy for once and needing exactly that power level to top them..

Maybe Tien taking out that one sniper is ultimately what really won it because that allowed character X to beat character Y later. Or whoever noticed the tiny guy (Piccollo?)

And we have no idea how well someone like Buu would have done with his part splitting, turning enemies to candy, and near infinite stamina and healing powers.

Pikuhan isn’t canon and Android 16 wasn’t strong enough.

If Krillin, Tien, and Roshi were all strong enough to be in the tournament, even if not to the end, 16 certainly was.

And all of Super is filler past the movies, just like GT was. "Canon" is only what they want it to be and limited only by their imaginations. Even without grabbing from the 3 decades of old characters, they could have easily made new ones. They clearly didn't give a single shit about Tien, and 17 was basically a new character for all intents and purposes that they just grabbed from the archive, so they might as well have tried making someone new or usng a different underserved character. Cripes, finally teach Kaioken to the humans or something.

[Green_vs_Red]

We overlook Vegeta paralyzing Goku and his minion killing half the crew. We overlook Piccollo shattering every lib in Goku's body and then later actually killing him.

In the interest of fairness Piccolo at the least did have something of axe to grind considering Goku put a hole in his father's chest and killed some of his brothers. So we can at least call that even

and threw away Tien after he got one fight

At least he got to fight as opposed to what Chiaotzu & Yamcha get stuck doing whenever there's a crisis.

ANd Ginyu's body switch mechanic probably would have worked nicely at the tourney up to a point. maybe not on Jiren and Hit, but certainly some of the lower tiers.

Ginyu's body swapping gimmick definitely makes him even more creepier if you assume he's used that technique multiple times before the Namek mission to exchange bodies on a whim.