+ Reply to Thread
Page 16 of 22 FirstFirst ... 6 14 15 16 17 18 ... LastLast
Results 301 to 320 of 422

Thread: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

  1. #301

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Raleigh was able to get that band off Camie's neck, shouldn't Luffy have learnt how to do that now? Sanji is plain pathetic, his plan was to leave home was to abandon the dream that had made him who he is. The way these strawhats give up their ambition so easy makes me wonder if they are worthy of being among the King's of the sea. I wonder who might be taking us on another of this tired played out journeys? Surely not Zoro. This new world has seriously been demeaning for the Sanji character. It's a pity. We're now set up for another deux X machina device in this one piece plot. I imagine it will come from Pudding. That's the only way out of the present situation. The thing is, this literary device has been used several times in this Manga and it surely does get tiring. Luffy's impetuous nature might be to blame but it's time these egg heads began to think and plan properly when there is so much to lose. Luffy should be able to think more about the impact of his actions on his crew members and others. Whereas this should be nail biting cliff hanger, it has created room for some head scratching.
    You don't know what you are talking about it.XD

  2. #302

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Luffy : No Sanji no crew!
    And yes Luffy can do the same thing as Religh because why?
    Successful negro doesn't need a signature.

  3. #303

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    This totland arc made me think again about vivre card. It's still unknown how they can be done and to me it still seems a little messy.
    Earlier in the story we knew that in some island somebody was able to do them (ace said that if I recall correctly), still Sabo came up at the end of Dressrosa and did one for Luffy offpaneled in a whim.

    Now we have BM vivre card from Lola (honestly handled a lil bit OP in my opinion) but we don't know anything else.

    Beside that there's still BB ability to steal DF to people (well .. or weapon - since the knife used by burgess and BB it's always present when somebody's fruit is stolen on panel). I put that here cause it's somehow similar in a certain way.

    while BB's ability is probably unrelated to BM, in my opinion, I believe making vivre card have to do something with BM ability and fruit, even if Sabo made it in Dressrosa.
    What's your opinion?
    Last edited by Fraco; November 6th, 2016 at 09:02 AM. Reason: clarity
    "I'm simply an accident. Why take it all so seriously?"

  4. #304

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaizoku_Ou View Post
    He knew that's why he left with them. Remember when Vito whispered in his ear?
    You assumed what was said in a whisper? Now that's new.

    His surprised look when Judge showed him the picture of Zeff during the dinner showed that was the first time he was aware of the situation.
    IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU....

  5. #305

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Mario View Post
    But I'm enjoying this ride too. It seems like this will definitely become one of my favorite arcs out of the whole series if Oda keeps playing his cards right with this suspense. I love how we're not completely sure of how this arc will transpire.
    Agreed! I like this arc way more than Dressrosa which got completely ruined through the Sugar+Birdcage subplot for me.

    However, one thing about the citizens' choice: It's not as much a voluntary choice as it may seem. It's not really a choice between live or leave, in fact it's a choice between
    - give up some of your lifespan but gain protection and a okay/good life
    - get no protection and die by the other dangers of the New World

    They may be able to leave theoretically, but how are they supposed to pull it off? So let's say they decide to try going to Shanks' territory or to settle in paradise/blues. We've already seen how dangerous the sea can be even in East Blue. Very few might make it, though, but for the most the alternative just would be certain death.

  6. #306
    Discovered Stowaway benao's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Oslo/Norway

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Why do people think so low of sanji? It's obvious he can get out of those shackles, he's just playing along because it's part of his plan. He'll free himself when he can make sure the cook master and others are doing ok which he should've already done something with and just waiting for a message tellin him they're clear. Then he's gonna beat the shit out of jugde while shit goes crazy, big mom losing power, betrayed from all sides, etc

  7. #307

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereques View Post
    You assumed what was said in a whisper? Now that's new.

    His surprised look when Judge showed him the picture of Zeff during the dinner showed that was the first time he was aware of the situation.
    But who could that be that vito talked about ivankov ?

  8. #308

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Raleigh was able to get that band off Camie's neck, shouldn't Luffy have learnt how to do that now?
    Because Rayleigh obviously took Luffy aside when training him on Haki to say "Hey, if you ever just so happen to be in a situation where a bomb collar is put on someone, here is how you remove it quick enough.

    It's not a matter of "how to" do it, Rayleigh ripped the thing off and threw it fast enough so that the explosion wouldn't hurt Camie.

    Also you're acting like Luffy knows that Sanji has these things on.

    Sanji is plain pathetic, his plan was to leave home was to abandon the dream that had made him who he is. The way these strawhats give up their ambition so easy makes me wonder if they are worthy of being among the King's of the sea. I wonder who might be taking us on another of this tired played out journeys? Surely not Zoro.
    Yeah surely not Zoro, the man who blatantly said he'd give up his life(and his dream) to protect his captain on Thriller Bark, and when he begged Mihawk to train him and he stated that getting stronger for Luffy's sake was worth begging to the man he wants to beat to train him.

    Also what the fuck are you talking about saying his "plan to leave home was to abandon the dream that he had made him who he is". He left his home to leave his nazi family, then left Baratie to go fulfill his dream of finding the All Blue.

    This new world has seriously been demeaning for the Sanji character. It's a pity. We're now set up for another deux X machina device in this one piece plot. I imagine it will come from Pudding. That's the only way out of the present situation. The thing is, this literary device has been used several times in this Manga and it surely does get tiring. Luffy's impetuous nature might be to blame but it's time these egg heads began to think and plan properly when there is so much to lose. Luffy should be able to think more about the impact of his actions on his crew members and others. Whereas this should be nail biting cliff hanger, it has created room for some head scratching.
    I think you're confusing a deus ex machina for...well plot. I honestly don't know if you're trolling or trying to make some point but a deus ex machina would be like if Kuma showed up out of nowhere and blew the cuffs off.

    Please, what other "deus ex machina" have you found in the manga since you've said it's used so much. Only one I can possibly think of right now is the Merry showing up on Enies Lobby.

    The fact of the matter is right now Sanji has handcuffs on that will explode if he leaves the island, the key is with one of the 4 Emperors, his father figure is in a hostage situation across the world, and Luffy doesn't know any of this.


    Quote Originally Posted by benao View Post
    Why do people think so low of sanji? It's obvious he can get out of those shackles, he's just playing along because it's part of his plan. He'll free himself when he can make sure the cook master and others are doing ok which he should've already done something with and just waiting for a message tellin him they're clear. Then he's gonna beat the shit out of jugde while shit goes crazy, big mom losing power, betrayed from all sides, etc
    While I disagree with all the people making Sanji out to be this low, pathetic character, it's not "obvious" he can get out of those shackles. He wouldn't have panels of him looking at them in anger otherwise. It's not a part of his plan, we saw in THIS chapter that that is very much not the case. Do I think it's possible he can get out of them? Yes. However at the moment we have no reason to believe that Sanji is confident he can and we've only been shown the opposite. He's stuck between a rock and a hard place right now, the man who usually has a plan is legitimately in a situation right now where he does not currently have a plan.
    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

  9. #309
    Flagon Snaggin' Dragon Kaido King of the Beasts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Under your bed, in your closet, in your head

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    People seem to forget about Sanji on Dressrosa on Zou, I guess cuz he wasn't there much, which is a shame because he was phenomenal. Yes, he ran into Viola entirely through accident, but his mannerisms toward her pretty much saved her and the entire crew. And right after he learned the truth, he pretty much went right to work getting the Straw Hats out of the hole Doffy was putting them in, even taking on Doffy himself and not being afraid despite being completely overpowered. Then after the Sunny crew escapes he leads them through a battle with Big Mom's ship, onto Zou, and into a salvation mission. And when stuff started getting bad for him when Bege arrived, he still managed to surprise by getting his crewmates out of Bege's captivity.

    And moving on to this arc, it's really important for people to know that this is supposed to be Sanji's darkest hour. His entire livelihood and everyone he cares about is in jeopardy and he can pretty much do nothing to stop all of it. And yet people expect him to be an emotionally impervious Superman, correlating him with his Punk Hazard self which is the most recent part of him they can remember.

    Now, I could understand it if Sanji was in this situation because he was a total dumbass and completely ignored any obvious ways to get out of the situation, which can be a common trope in media, but as far as I see this wasn't the case at all. And honestly, would you really have as much/any investment in this arc if it was always apparent that Sanji was confident and had a plan? No, because that would basically render any threat from the opposition useless and there would be nothing to keep interest piqued. Instead, this arc focuses on how Sanji is confronted by aspects of his past that he has no control over, joined in by a Yonko, and basically his natural reaction to all of this as well as the reactions of his friends. Not a Sanji fight showcase.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereques View Post
    You assumed what was said in a whisper? Now that's new.

    His surprised look when Judge showed him the picture of Zeff during the dinner showed that was the first time he was aware of the situation.
    I know what Vito whispered to Sanji.



    Spoiler:

  10. #310

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Deus ex machine: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
    It hasappened plenty times especially for Luffy, not to talk of other smaller characters. In Logue town with Dragon; in Saboady archipelago with Kuma; in Fishmongers island with the sea monsters; at the Battle of the white beard vs world government with the the arrival of Shanks. It will happen here again no doubt because Luffy won't budge.

    I meant to say Sanji left his crew for a pathetic reason and he even thought never to return. That is not the way of a true Mugiwara. Not so late in the manga. These characters have developed to such a level that nothing should shake them easily. Especially a clear headed third most powerful character like Sanji. And yes, on a lighter note, Raleigh said he left Luffy after teaching him all he knew. Without Raleigh's intervention for Camie (another deus ex machina), she might have died. Luffy might have reckoned that was a neat trick to learn seeing that it saved her life with a flip of the wrist.

  11. #311
    Flagon Snaggin' Dragon Kaido King of the Beasts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Under your bed, in your closet, in your head

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    I meant to say Sanji left his crew for a pathetic reason and he even thought never to return. That is not the way of a true Mugiwara. Not so late in the manga. These characters have developed to such a level that nothing should shake them easily. Especially a clear headed third most powerful character like Sanji. And yes, on a lighter note, Raleigh said he left Luffy after teaching him all he knew. Without Raleigh's intervention for Camie (another deus ex machina), she might have died. Luffy might have reckoned that was a neat trick to learn seeing that it saved her life with a flip of the wrist.
    You can't call Sanji's reason pathetic until we actually learn the reason. Aka find out what Vito said to him.

    And, again, Luffy doesn't even know about Sanji's cuffs so the whole Rayleigh argument is meaningless. Plus Sanji's not going to think, "oh, remember that one time Rayleigh pulled off an exploding collar? Maybe there's an off chance he taught it to Luffy and that gives me enough reason to risk blowing off my hands and probably injuring Luffy as well! And I have absolutely no loved ones that would die if Luffy did that because I'm a pathetic loser!"


    Spoiler:

  12. #312
    二兎を追う者は一兎も得ず SuburbanErrorist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Location
    Japan

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Deus ex machine: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
    It hasappened plenty times especially for Luffy, not to talk of other smaller characters. In Logue town with Dragon
    No one knew who the person was at the time. But considering the fact that he is from East blue.. not an asspull.

    in Saboady archipelago with Kuma;
    Kuma already "saved" the strawhats before on Thriller bark. Also the one that saved the strawhats from the hopeless situation was Rayleigh.

    in Fishmongers island with the sea monsters;
    my memory is not good on this one.

    at the Battle of the white beard vs world government with the the arrival of Shanks. It will happen here again no doubt because Luffy won't budge.
    What did Shanks do? Whitebeard and Ace were already dead and Luffy was already in the submarine. It was already mentioned Kaido went to kill whitebeard but Shanks had a battle with him, him coming in to stop Akainu wasn't as random.

  13. #313

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by firelord111 View Post
    But who could that be that vito talked about ivankov ?
    I don't know, but his reaction was surprise and disgust. Whatever Vito told him, Sanji still want to resolve the issue and return back to the SHs. Sanji gave up completely after he was shown the picture of Zeff.
    IF YOU DIE, I'LL KILL YOU....

  14. #314

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    I think explosives handling is a Rayleigh exclusive skill. Plus Sanji has given no indication he's not concerned about the bracelets. I can't imagine Luffy having such a skill either. He's not a finesse sort of character. Or a magician.

  15. #315
    Discovered Stowaway HacheBe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    on your screen

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    I think explosives handling is a Rayleigh exclusive skill. Plus Sanji has given no indication he's not concerned about the bracelets. I can't imagine Luffy having such a skill either. He's not a finesse sort of character. Or a magician.
    I think it just has to do with speed and strength really. He just rips it off fast enough to make it explode in the air instead of on the person. If that is what he does than it wouldn't be just him that could do it it would just be a select few who are able to do so. Luffy may be on that level but I for some reason doubt that

  16. #316

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by HacheBe View Post
    I think it just has to do with speed and strength really. He just rips it off fast enough to make it explode in the air instead of on the person. If that is what he does than it wouldn't be just him that could do it it would just be a select few who are able to do so. Luffy may be on that level but I for some reason doubt that
    Rip it off without taking off Kamie's head?

    But I dunno. I couldn't picture Luffy being able to do it. He's physically fast but also a brute force type of guy. And he's not very good at being that delicate with people. He throws and crashes into his crew all time.

  17. #317
    I do, bro! I do! Shadowgreed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Peach Creek

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Removing bracelets doesn't require special powers or such an amazing skills that only a few can have, it requires speed and observation Haki to know the right moment the bracelet is gonna explode.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #318
    The Die Has Been Cast Count Mario's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Planet Zordoom

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by The Tenth Strawhat View Post
    You both bring up great points. Although I never payed attention to the fact BM's children dispose the bodies of the people she kills during her death cravings until Count Mario pointed it out. Do they hide the victims so she doesn't remember who got iced by her? How would BM react if she found out?
    I have no idea. What's interesting is how Mont D'or demands that they scavenge every single "second", which is presumably the bits and pieces left of Moscato's lifespan. They might keep that stuff around in hope that they could revive him or at least for another beneficial purpose. But everybody playing coy is definitely strange. Even wise and honorable Jimbei went along with it.

    So that begs the question, as silly as this may sound. Does Big Mom even KNOW she has an illness in the first place? She could still know about it while not being informed of when they happen, but it's still a possibility. Especially when she seems to care about her children by telling them not to fight or kill each other, which would make for a rather morbidly awkward revelation about Moscato from her own children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartholemew Bear View Post
    Agreed! I like this arc way more than Dressrosa which got completely ruined through the Sugar+Birdcage subplot for me.

    However, one thing about the citizens' choice: It's not as much a voluntary choice as it may seem. It's not really a choice between live or leave, in fact it's a choice between
    - give up some of your lifespan but gain protection and a okay/good life
    - get no protection and die by the other dangers of the New World

    They may be able to leave theoretically, but how are they supposed to pull it off? So let's say they decide to try going to Shanks' territory or to settle in paradise/blues. We've already seen how dangerous the sea can be even in East Blue. Very few might make it, though, but for the most the alternative just would be certain death.
    That's certainly a valid point. But the souls are still utilized for the benefit of the kingdom in the Homies' usefulness. So I would still argue that it's fair. It's the New World, there's bound to be risks involved when you decide to live in a pirate-protected territory rather than being protected by the Marines/World Government. Even though Shanks and Whitebeard probably don't ask for anything in return, I wouldn't say this is enough to make a case for Big Mom being unjustifiably corrupt in and of itself.

    And this is definitely MUCH better than Dressrosa.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nubtro View Post
    My focus was on Luffy and Sanji, I haven´t really put much thought into dealing with BM.
    I understand.

    I respect the points that have been made against BM "going down" and I agree with most of them. As I said, I absolutely did not expect BM being defeated by force, if at all. I jokingly predicted something ridiculous like an eating contest. My train of thought was along the lines of Lola & Nami friendship -> vivre card -> some sort of peaceful resolution.

    So, I still think the likelihood of a BM beating is very slim, especially considering the author has build the future Kaidou encounter as an all-out conflict requiring weeks of planning and ally gathering. I am glad I mentioned the portion regarding curing "her madness", which for me encompasses all the evil things she is doing.
    I've been predicting a Davy Back Fight myself lol. I would love that to be relevant in an arc with this many stakes and quirkiness. But the chances for that or some sort of eating contest (not that an eating contest can't be the final round of a Davy Back Fight...) have obviously decreased. I never expected Big Mom to change her mind with just the Vivre Card though. It will definitely be a factor in her getting more cool with the Straw Hats, but after waging war and invading Totland, that can't be enough lol. But I trust that you acknowledge this as well now.

    But, the story has come to a point where bad stuff is slowly piling up for both (all) sides and I am wondering how all these situations can be dealt with in a somewhat peaceful way:
    Some type of negotiation or game. Like the one Big Mom offered to Jimbei when he tried to leave Big Mom. I doubt Oda introduced that without making her love for games come back in some way. Also, a lot of things can happen during the wedding chaos to destabilize Big Mom's power structure to rectify her corruption.

    1. Taking the life force from Totlanders, only to put it into inanimate objects to create her "slave toys".

    Her dream may seem admirable (if we´re talking racial equality, everyone seen as a family member), but the means are not. If she´s so strong and capable, she should be able to fulfill her fantasy without killing people, among other stuff. She is an ego-maniac with enough to force her will onto others, if they don´t play along, and she has been doing exactly that. As far as caring rulers go, she doesn´t reach the heels of King Riku in my book (who had his own flaws, but his love for the country and its citizens was pure).

    Totland is far from ideal, in my opinion it´s just an absolute monarchy where the crazy ruler taxes life spans to build pretty stuff for herself. Again, she should give parts of her own soul away. But why would she? Power abuse.

    You might argue that Germa´s way of disrespecting human lives by simply creating "new disposable pawns" is more evil and that´s true, but that´s not an excuse for what BM is doing. Even if the citizens didn´t make the pact, who´s to say she wouldn´t take it by force (threat of force) like she does with pretty much everything?

    Anyway, if nothing else, the BM-Germa evil alliance should be prevented.
    It's because she's so strong and capable that she shouldn't be using her own lifespan to preserve her kingdom. It's her tactical mind, power, and sheer presence that preserves Totland and her territories as one of the greatest pirate figures in the world. And with her personifications of her soul scattered around Totland collecting other people's souls, they may very well be pieces of Big Mom's own lifespan for all we know. That's not power abuse, it's not needlessly putting yourself at risk when you are the cornerstone of preserving your kingdom. She's not just building pretty stuff for herself, the Homies actually protect and enrich that society as a whole. AND it's still the citizens choice to give away bits of their life. Bits of their life that are only a sixth of the time they spend living there with all of its benefits. Life does not find value solely in how much time is available, but what you specifically do with the time for you have for earnest satisfaction regardless of how long or short it may be. If the citizens are cool with that and have their lose lifespan portions dedicated towards a society that helps them prosper, then it's a decent tradeoff.

    The alliance should be prevented though. And regardless of viewing Big Mom's soul taxes and Homie as justifiable or morbid, I'm sure that the citizens will get back their lifespan pieces at the end of the arc. Just like how when Moria was defeated, everybody across the world got their stolen shadows back. Or when the toys got transformed back into normal on Dressrosa. I think that Brook will use his ambiguous soul powers and music to manipulate the soul incarnations. As seen in how he describes how his music entrances the souls of those who listen to the point of causing hallucinations and hypnosis, and how his sword is powered by his soul's freezing underworld energy.

    Spoiler:












    Nami takes on Prometheus and Zeus with her weather powers and Brook takes care of the soul incarnations with his soul powers. Pretty cool. That just leaves Chopper to deal with Big Mom's illness and maybe Sanji can do something cooking related for her (such as cooking the food that Big Mom craves during her delirious rampages sparked by her illness). And Jimbei can... place wet pieces of cloth on her forehead during the treatment, I guess. XD

    2. Destroying countries because they do not deliver insane amounts of food on time. Pacta sunt servanda, but not like this. Power abuse again with innocent casualties.
    I mentioned this as a vice. I agree that this should not continue. Same with forcing the Charlotte children into marriages and excommunicating husbands from the family once their "role" of bringing children is served (not to mention killing them if they talk about Big Mom). And at least Fishman Island has to leave Big Mom's protection to go under Luffy's like Jimbei desires.

    3. The shame of having her super tightly controlled and guarded territory breached by some "rookie" with just a few of his friends, which she was aware of for quite some time now.
    Which is why she sent Cracker and Brûlée after Luffy's gang in the Seducing Woods. And why she sent most of her army and started a storm after Luffy propelled Cracker's unconscious body into Sweet City. Just because you get off the wrong foot with somebody does not mean that circumstances can happen that force them work together, understand each other better, and grow to tolerate one another. This wedding's going to be one big disaster, not just from the Straw Hats showing up, but also from Capone's coup, potential antics by Caesar, and Germa 66 likely causing havoc either due to relations souring up (I wouldn't be surprised to see them open the Fishman Island bomb as a wedding gift) or by staging this wedding in the first place in order to take down Big Mom (I've recently been posting in the theories thread about how they could actually be working with Capone and even the Marines/World Government. By taking Big Mom down, the Marines/World Government let them control North Blue again without starting a war, and they still get to go to the Reverie).

    Additionally, there are significant hints of Big Mom actually respecting and even liking Luffy to a degree. She still obvious considers him a threat that needs to be dealt with, hence why she sent a whole army after him just recently. But she was actually swayed by Luffy to switch her rage towards destroying Fishman Island to focusing only on the Straw Hat crew's destruction. And this wasn't just a random whim, but consistent with her character of advocating selfishness as the definition of how one should live their lives. The definition of being a pirate. Which is VERY similar to Luffy's definition of being a pirate. Such as when he said (I think it was in Alabasta) during the celebration feast about how he doesn't want to be a hero because heroes have to share their food with everybody, while pirates can eat it all for themselves. Or when he told the Grand Fleet to go screw themselves when they offered to be allies that would constantly back up Luffy because he thinks that their huge presence would be a huge burden. He explicitly says that he wants to become Pirate King, not become some power mogul like most other villains like Shiki in Strong World, but to become "the freest man across the seas". Luffy's dream is basically to not be inhibited by societal rules or needless obligations. He wants to live life selfishly. Big Mom respects that a lot, as seen with how Jimbei offered to leave and didn't question why (explicitly mentioning that everybody should live life the way they want and not be tied down). She just wants an "equal exchange" from Jimbei to make things "fair", whatever that's supposed to mean.

    It's because she sees that conviction in Luffy that she let Fishman Island be spared. And why she seemed disappointed when she thought that Luffy didn't beat Cracker the next morning after the fight started.

    Spoiler:












    You're putting too much thought into Big Mom being a prideful person. She actually seems to highly respect when people have "the nerve" to talk to her on an equal level to get what they want than submit out of fear (which is probably symbolically connected to how she sucks lifespans out of people who exhibit fear and probably can't do that if they aren't scared). It's just that she also doesn't put their desires above her equally valid ones as well, which is why she negotiates in these "equal exchanges" that we've seen with Luffy and Jimbei. Which is why she destroys island territories that don't live up to their agreement of offering sweets each month in "equal exchange" for protection. Hence why she hated how how Pekoms and Tamago offered the Fishman Island treasure as compensation for the loss of the monthly candy tribute, because Big Mom wanted candy and/or vengeance. Luffy just convinced her to get the latter out of destroying him than Fishman Island, and respected his conviction. She was not offended by him being a rookie. If anything, the Yonko that gets offended by rookies messing with their plans is Kaido.

    Spoiler:








    This is why some sort of "treaty" or game between Luffy and Big Mom is possible after the wedding. Because of their similar beliefs that they can respect in one another, while disagreeing with the methods and wanting to keep those that are valuable to them. Luffy and Jimbei have negotiated before, and they can do it again when Big Mom is knocked down a peg in power and the Straw Hats gain leverage from their forces. Not enough to make Big Mom surrender or get beaten of course, you acknowledge that in all of the allies being built up to take down another Yonko, Kaido. But enough to make Big Mom not want to suffer any more losses after the wedding causes Whole Cake Island to go to hell. Even if Big Mom won, it would be a Pyrrhic victory. She respects Luffy enough to want to negotiate.

    4. One of her 4 top most valued personell in her line of command and her son, being trashed (if you look at it from their position and how they found him, he came flying from the forest).
    This is why the army was sent after Luffy. The same happened to Urouge when he defeated Sweet General Snack, except that another Sweet General (Cracker) came and warded him off (Brûlée, and probably everybody else too, believes Urouge's dead though). Still doesn't mean that relations can't improve after the chaos of the wedding. Just look at the initial tension between the Straw Hats and the Franky Family in Water 7. What with Usopp getting mugged for cash and beaten to a pulp twice, and the Straw Hats assaulting their base and blowing it up. And then Luffy and Franky's fight in Galley-La. CP9's actions that pulled both parties into the mix by abducting their loved ones got them to make up and see the bigger picture. The same will probably happen in the wedding when Germa 66 and the Firetank Pirates start up a gang war to usurp power. Whenever there's a political marriage in gangster media, that type of event ALWAYS happens. And its the Vinsmokes and Capone who are being built-up to be irredeemable monsters, while Big Mom is certainly a messed up ruler, but at least has some arguable merits and respectable conviction similar to Luffy's.

    5. The provocative act of a "rookie" standing in the middle of her headquarters (island) and her inability to get rid of him. Assuming/rooting Luffy and friend(s) pull this off.
    Which, again, is why she sent her army after him. And will probably think he's dead until the next day. She's also busy with setting up the wedding, so she's not going to have the proper insight to know about Luffy still being around until the wedding inevitably turns to hell from the Fishman Island explosives wedding gift and a coup. I also explained earlier why Luffy being a rookie and these early tensions between both parties will most likely boil down, and how she likes to negotiate with deals and games.

    As a Yonko, Kaido is not the biggest fan of playing "Little Pirate Games". Big Mom seems to disagree. XD

    6. Her own powers being used against her is quite shameful. Devil fruits have weaks, in this case her vivre card (physical manifestation of BM´s own soul/life force) seems to be hers.
    Except that Big Mom and Lola seem to have a healthy relationship. And Nami has Lola's Vivre Card. AND Lola claimed that the Straw Hats can rely on calling her mother for help if they get into a bind in the New World. Big Mom's Devil Fruit weaknesses will certain

    7. Her precious road glyph being "stolen" from under her nose.
    Brook and Pedro can get away with it without Big Mom knowing. Although I DEFINITELY think they'll be caught. However, that still doesn't mean Big Mom has to learn that they were successful if they can hide the copied script or somehow steal the whole freaking Road Poneglyph off the island last minute (Luffy mentioned wanting to do that on Zou before getting criticized by Usopp. So there's a legit possibility Luffy will try this, which would be hilarious). I can imagine a situation where she lets the Straw Hats leave Whole Cake Island only to find out at the last minute that they stole the Road Poneglyph, causing her to rampage and compelling the Straw Hats to retreat as fast as possible like they did when Garp assaulted them when they left Water 7 lol.

    Speaking of the Road Poneglyph though, another big reason why Big Mom is likely to let the Straw Hats go is to let Luffy take down Kaido. Big Mom has been making these political marriages to form allies. Which gets her territories. Which gives her more power. She has a Road Poneglyph in the first place because she most likely wants to become Pirate Kin-I mean, Queen. Hence why Jimbei gave her the Poneglyph he found in a cover story as a gift right before asking to leave her crew. She just can't read them without having someone like Robin on her crew (which is why I backed a Davy Back Fight being possible earlier in the arc. If Big Mom wins, she can get the whole Straw Hat crew to be minions, including Robin. But I digress...). So it stands to good reason that if the enemy of her enemy is Kaido, which is also another enemy she has due to the Yonko's having stalemated in for years, then she would happily entertain his potential defeat. She has everything to gain from Kaido falling. More territories and an opportunity to get another Road Poneglyph. And most importantly, Caesar. Because she views Caesar Clown's scientific prowess is the key to gigantifying her family, which is her dream. But he has also been invaluable for producing the SAD for the SMILEs that make artificial Zoan soldiers, which is Kaido's dream for having enough forces to initiate his world war. I EXCEPTIONALLY doubt that Oda making Caesar so valuable to two of the Yonko's individual aspirations is a mere coincidence. And the Straw Hats juggling between Big Mom and Kaido's forces so constantly and their reputation being established all the way in Thriller Bark from Lola and Moria makes it that much more likely for these two groups to acknowledge and interact with each other in some way. She could even give Luffy some help to take down Kaido at Wano, although I would prefer not as I want Luffy's own power exclusively to take down a Yonko without help from another one. Just letting him go makes complete sense.

    And after they leave, I can definitely see someone like Akainu or Blackbeard taking advantage of Big Mom's weakened kingdom to take her out. I'm betting more on the former for obvious reasons I hinted at before, and because Blackbeard already took down Whitebeard and will definitely slaughter the Red Hair Pirates. Spread the Yonko conquering love around to other factions lol.

    8. No power boost from Germa´s technology if the forced marriage plans fail.
    While it would be a big loss for her, this isn't going to really matter when relations between the Charlottes and the Vinsmokes probably turns sour from the exchange of wedding gifts having the Fishman Island bomb exploding. Although it's likely for Reiju to take over Germa 66 after the other Vinsmokes are defeated. So she can lend Big Mom assistance without having to force Sanji into a marriage or something. I don't know, that's all unclear. All I'm certain of is that I can see her attending the Reverie in Judge's place after the Totland arc is done.

    Basically, if you imagine you are a bigshot who can do everything you like and have been doing that for many years, these actions disrupting your plans or outright beating up your family members, would surely make you furious.

    So, it´s not just her selfish acts and and her tantrums which directly or indirectly hurt others, or take away something that a person in a well-functioning society should not be required to give away. It´s also the fact that she has a big ego, who I think is currently being humiliated by a super small group of pirates, which she may have underestimated. Let´s turn this around. Imagine some pirate takes out a SH and then comes to the Sunny, cements his feet in the middle of it, proclaiming he won´t leave until he gets his own way, which goes against Luffy´s plans (err...I mean his dream, as he does not make plans), would Luffy just let him be?

    It would actually surprise me if she didn´t hold a grudge against them. So for me the question is if such a big ego can settle for much less than what they are used to get (their own way or bust). She kind of did that with the trasure and Fishman Island, but the current situation is far more serious.

    So yeah, I won´t be angry or anything if this ends in a truce (by that I mean anything but a KOed BM) because SHs help her with a Bege betrayal and/or her killing tantrums or something else. But for that to happen, she needs to respect the Strawhats first. So far, they are only making her angrier and I wonder how she will feel if that alliance with Germa 66 does not happen.
    I've answered all of this by responding to the earlier parts of your message. But just to reiterate, we've already seen the Straw Hats settle tension with other factions in the past. The Franky Family, the Flying Fish Pirates (Duval's crew), the Shandians, G-5 (Smoker's Marine group), and make unlikely allies in the form of Robin, Brownbeard, and inevitably Reiju. Big Mom's just the next form of that with the Vinsmokes and Bege in line to take over as the main arc antagonists. And regardless of if my theory on the Germa throwing a coup is false, they can still sour their relationship with Big Mom on their own from the Fishman Island explosives being handed to them as a wedding gift. So Big Mom does not have to blame Luffy for that. Big Mom does not have as much of an ego issue as you claim, her psychology is way more complex than that. Down to possibly having a mental illness lol.

    There´s a lot at stake for everyone involved with many situations to resolve. I love it.
    Same. I love organized crime stories like this lol.
    Last edited by Count Mario; November 10th, 2016 at 08:04 AM. Reason: We're just playing "Little Pirate Games".

    Spoiler:
    "Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."

  19. #319

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sereques View Post
    I don't know, but his reaction was surprise and disgust. Whatever Vito told him, Sanji still want to resolve the issue and return back to the SHs. Sanji gave up completely after he was shown the picture of Zeff.
    Second thought ivankovs head is too big for small present box

  20. #320
    aka demonicpoodle Kaworu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Proud believer in "Xebec is Alive"

    Default Re: Chapter 845 - "The Enraged Army"

    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Deus ex machine: an unexpected power or event saving a seemingly hopeless situation, especially as a contrived plot device in a play or novel.
    It hasappened plenty times especially for Luffy, not to talk of other smaller characters. In Logue town with Dragon; in Saboady archipelago with Kuma; in Fishmongers island with the sea monsters; at the Battle of the white beard vs world government with the the arrival of Shanks. It will happen here again no doubt because Luffy won't budge.

    I meant to say Sanji left his crew for a pathetic reason and he even thought never to return. That is not the way of a true Mugiwara. Not so late in the manga. These characters have developed to such a level that nothing should shake them easily. Especially a clear headed third most powerful character like Sanji. And yes, on a lighter note, Raleigh said he left Luffy after teaching him all he knew. Without Raleigh's intervention for Camie (another deus ex machina), she might have died. Luffy might have reckoned that was a neat trick to learn seeing that it saved her life with a flip of the wrist.
    So I'm really just going to address the deus ex machina stuff. To me, there are different levels of Deus Ex Machina. The only type that is "bad" to me is when a character that had no reason to be there stops the opposition. The example I always think of is in Bleach when Kenpachi stops Nnoitra from taking out Ichigo from literally nowhere. There was no indication that he or the captains were even IN Hueco Mundo. That will always mark the downhill part of Hueco Mundo to me; Ichigo could have conceivably beat Nnoitra (with the help of Nel if she was more powerful) and the suspense and drama was all very tangible at that moment. Then bam, Kenpachi. And a lot of captains. Hueco Mundo was so appealing before that.

    So that's the worst level, characters with no reason to be there save the day.

    The one I will slightly concede to you being at that level is Shanks. Slightly. Not fully because Shanks DID have a vested interest in Blackbeard, and likely had a stake in Ace's life (due to Ace being Luffy's brother). Did he arrive there very quickly, yes. But he had every reason to be at that war, especially since it was well known that Luffy was there. It was a graceful end to the war after 2 of the main objectives (Marine-wise) were resolved, Ace dying and Whitebeard dying. Beyond that the war would have been a waste of time for the reader. Had to come to a stop somehow.

    Loguetown with Dragon is deus ex machina. Still well-written. Deus ex machina =/= bad.

    Kuma you don't have a case with. That was traumatic and horrible for the crew at the time. We already knew Kuma was capable of sending people places. He was close-by in location. He had every reason to be there and to want to help Luffy out of that exceedingly overwhelming series of high threats. Same reasoning with Rayleigh.

    ? I'd have to re-read that part of FI. Don't recall that being D.E.M.

    All of this said. I am curious what could happen here with Luffy that you would NOT consider deus ex machina.
    Croc or Enel would never.
    Wanna see the "ancient civilization destroyed" thing done really well? FFXIV did a great take on it. The bar's high for One Piece to beat.

+ Reply to Thread

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts