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Thread: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

  1. #3181

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    TL;DR; Writing a shitty series can be a talent because you sold copies and have fans who bought them.

    Remember guys, if you steal elements from other series and basically execute them in the most generic and laziest way then you are talented. Who cares about author voice, creativity, trying to put your own spin, or writing skills etc.... when you can copy popular works and make money.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Razh View Post
    not sure what is there to disagree on.
    Pretty much says all right here.

  2. #3182

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Chill, man. I don't know if you two had some beef before, but your last 2 posts came out as 100% off the mark less because you missed the point he was trying to make, mostly because of your completely uncalled for aggressiveness and eagerness to offend.

  3. #3183

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    TL;DR; Writing a shitty series can be a talent because you sold copies and have fans who bought them.

    Remember guys, if you steal elements from other series and basically execute them in the most generic and laziest way then you are talented. Who cares about author voice, creativity, trying to put your own spin, or writing skills etc.... when you can copy popular works and make money.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---



    Pretty much says all right here.
    If someone dared to say on a movie board that Michael Bay was a genius that is absolved of all criticism because his movies have grossed a ton of money, that person would become a laughing stock. Quite sad that this type of reasoning is somehow accepted here.

  4. #3184

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Nobody is saying they are above criticism, or that Kubo and Mashima are good writers. They are good hacks, they know/knew what their target audience wanted and gave them it, in excess latter on to disastrous levels.
    The impression that is being generated here again, as it was on KnY thread a few weeks ago, is that finding enjoyable a mediocre of bad series (which as in any artistic production is a matter of subjective taste) is a badge of bad taste that automatically invalidates your opinion.


  5. #3185

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Because yes, any artistic work is created in a vacuum and then randomly shat on the paper.

    Remember, there isn't any difference between the film making of The Room and The Citizen Kane. It's all subjective.

    Or so is the go-to-response for majority of people nowadays when it comes to understanding criticism.
    Last edited by HeartOfDarkness; May 25th, 2020 at 11:20 AM.

  6. #3186

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Oh yes because there's absolute no subjectivity when it comes to art. People shouldn't be allowed to enjoy Stephen King because Shakespeare could be called an objectively better writer.


  7. #3187

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Nice reading comprehension you got there, bud.

    Mind showing the response where I mentioned that you can't enjoy something?

    I'm gonna assume that this isn't one of those "I got nothing to say so let me just pull out something that wasn't even mentioned as a way to support my irrelevant point".

    Let's see if there is more to this conversation or will it end with "SUBJECTIVE" as some ground-breaking statement.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    But here; let me make the obvious distinction here.

    Art is subjective in terms of how YOU or I feel towards it.

    The craftmanship of the art isn't subjective. A poorly written character is poorly written regardless of how you feel about it. Just like how a poorly written series is a poorly written series. You can enjoy it. You can love it. You can consider it to the best thing since slice bread. But that doesn't make it.....not poorly written. But if you really enjoy it then it shouldn't really matter what the quality is.

    Going back to Citizen Kane and The Room; some people might find The Room to be more enjoyable than Kane and might like it better. I myself don't care for Kane. But the actual quality, skills and the impact on the industry behind it? That is *factual*. That isn't "opinion" or "subjective".
    Last edited by HeartOfDarkness; May 25th, 2020 at 11:33 AM.

  8. #3188

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Heard the anime was announced. Are they doing the whole thing over or just the last arc? I gotta see it, top 5


  9. #3189

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Its not a reboot so just covering the final arc as far as i know.

  10. #3190

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    The only point I disagree here is that I do think Kubo was actively trying to give what his readers wanted.
    Was that why he kept making Chad so useless?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ubiq View Post
    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284




  11. #3191

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    I don't think that me and you, HeartofDarkness have that much of a disagreement in perspective.
    Rather than bashing and firing on all cylinders maybe, just maybe you can consider that being successful in the industry is something worthy of respect by itself?
    Maybe when someone opens their manga or flip a book, they are not exactly going through this list of "masterful story telling 101" before deciding to continue and turn the page.

    Not at any point did I even say one series is better than another in my post, all I did was gave credit where it was due but for some reason I got jumped on that and was used as a springboard for a rant.
    Look, you have your criteria for good story writing and I feel like I would actually agree with some of them.
    I'm not attacking or questioning what your definition of a great work is because you didn't come here praising Bleach or Ft for their writing capabilities.
    And neither did I.
    Dude, I'm like at the top of the list for the people who constantly comes back here and shit on Bleach.
    It scarred me precisely because I used to love it so much.
    The manga industry, like any other entertainment industry, is also a business model.
    Not everyone that walks into this industry is going to be the next Shakespeare, Miura or Toriyama.
    But there are certain aspects of their series that draws people in, that make people like it a lot even if it is flawed.
    Maybe go read Bakuman or something and understand why having and knowing your audience is so important, I don't know.

    Mashima had so many more lows than highs with FT, but there was definitely something that still draws the readers back and that enjoyment makes the terrible writing/illogical moments bearable.
    So he must be doing something right and did something right at one point.

    Stop treating everyone else that doesn't enjoy your "pinnacle" of literature as peasants devoid of critical thinking and maybe respect the other series for what they have done right to reach popularity.
    Your phrase of copying and executing in the most generic and lazy way doesn't really apply for this two series we are talking about.
    Mashima does double chapters, worked his ass off and constantly filled his series with great backgrounds.
    Kubo is lazy(I'm not even going to argue this) but and yes talking with you I don't even know whether I'm being subjective or if this is an objective point, but I believe he have great character design and is at times M Night Shamalan of Shounen.
    Even when he knows he could take the easy route and his series and characters can be capitalize on, dude still chooses to write his oh I'm so smart twists.


    I truly hope you're not discounting all that and even thought they don't balance the scale, it is honest effort and something that as their reader for years, I can find inspiration in.

    Your "checklist" for an enjoyable story is also everchanging. As you get exposed to more media, your stance itself will change and you'll start to perhaps believe that the series that you have read in the past..might not be that worthy of that best story title in your mind.
    Maybe you'll understand more aspects of culture, of history, that you might have missed and dismissed and only get a better appreciation with more understanding.
    That's why it is dangerous to peg your standards onto others without truly understanding why people enjoy the entertainment and medium that they do.

    E.g: I hated Naruto late second half and how the author took an obvious stance , prioritizing familial values into his story that affect the overall quality.
    However, maybe at a different stage of my life and with a greater understanding of the importance of familial values and the Japanese culture will I be able to understand why despite the bad writing of the fourth ninja war, was the series still so revered in Japan.

    @PatTraverse maybe keep the personal attacks and baiting out of your posts and actually reply properly and you can have an actual discussion.
    Last edited by zeltrax225; May 25th, 2020 at 02:17 PM.

  12. #3192

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    Stop treating everyone else that doesn't enjoy your "pinnacle" of literature as peasants devoid of critical thinking and maybe respect the other series for what they have done right to reach popularity.
    Well, that sums what I wanted to respond in a way far more polite than I would've had I done it right away.


  13. #3193

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Kubo and Mashima sould learn from Oda when it come to story. Off panel the story then showing the aftermatch and show the mc beating unimportant characters, so there is nothing left to judge.

  14. #3194

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Quote Originally Posted by HeartOfDarkness View Post
    Art is subjective in terms of how YOU or I feel towards it.

    The craftmanship of the art isn't subjective. A poorly written character is poorly written regardless of how you feel about it. Just like how a poorly written series is a poorly written series. You can enjoy it. You can love it.
    You can consider it to the best thing since slice bread. But that doesn't make it.....not poorly written. But if you really enjoy it then it shouldn't really matter what the quality is.
    I agree with the bold parts, but the fact a person enjoys something of questionable quality doesn't mean said person is incapable o perceiving the flaws of the work. People should still be critic with what they consume, but on the other hand people also need to stop vexing other people for having different tastes, or treating those that don't share your tastes a inferior.


  15. #3195

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Quote Originally Posted by pariston_hill View Post
    fact a person enjoys something of questionable quality doesn't mean said person is incapable o perceiving the flaws of the work.
    Literally, nobody cares.

    I don't know if my post somehow triggered you guys to write whatever this is supposed to be rather than what the actual point of my post was, combining the context of it but this is just ridiculous.

    Go back and read it please because this "OPINION" shit is literally not relevant here. Nobody cares if you enjoy them or dislike them.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    Stop treating everyone else that doesn't enjoy your "pinnacle" of literature as peasants devoid of critical thinking and maybe respect the other series for what they have done right to reach popularity.
    I don't know if this is meant to be ironic considering this particular comment:

    Maybe you'll understand more aspects of culture, of history, that you might have missed and dismissed and only get a better appreciation with more understanding.
    That's why it is dangerous to peg your standards onto others without truly understanding why people enjoy the entertainment and medium that they do.
    Which is even more jarring when combine it with this part:

    they are not exactly going through this list of "masterful story telling 101" before deciding to continue and turn the page.
    So which is it? Are you trying to say that people mindlessly read shit because they enjoy it or do they think they are going to get something more out of it?

    And in regards for Bleach and FT, exactly how do *these* apply? I'm interested to see how people can apparently get something more from series that are literally devoid of any author voice and rely entirely on cliches and tropes.

    I'm gonna ignore the very-obvious tactic that you are applying over here. It's *not* literature to have some sort of an standard for stories. You seem to be confused about the type of series you are reading and are, in fact, trying to claim that these series that are created for teen boys somehow contain some serious subtext when they really don't nor they have to.

    Seems like you are insecure about reading series that are just *meant* to entertain and then claiming that you need some cultural context because Rabbit goddess being a terrible last-min boss is loaded with Japanese culture and only those who achieve the true weeb status can understand it and appreciate it.

    there was definitely something that still draws the readers back and that enjoyment makes the terrible writing/illogical moments bearable.
    People still watch and talk about The Room or Birdemic. Not because of its own intentional enjoyment but rather the unintentional so-bad-so-good type moments that come from the lack of experience, skill, and understanding of the medium.

    with a greater understanding of the importance of familial values and the Japanese culture will I be
    ..........Do you know why they call it *shonen* series? Maybe look into that since that will be much simpler and faster to understand why Naruto was popular.

    knowing your audience is so important
    Knowing your audience and pandering to your audience are two different things.

    Like Stanley Kubrick and Michael Bay level of difference.

  16. #3196

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    the only thing I remember liking in the last arc was Renji's new Bankai and the luchador bad guy

  17. #3197

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    I remember when people were looking forward to Robert Accutrone who was nicknamed "Colonel Sanders" before we knew his name, to do something because he looked pretty cool. He ended up doing nothing and died by Yhwach's Auswδhlen. Too many instances of that happening in that last arc.

  18. #3198
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    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    People love to crap on Kubo but I would put the Soul Society arc up there with just about any shonen arc I've read in terms of quality. There is a reason why it was a lot of people's gateway series. The pacing, character development, and plot were all top notch and gripping. You don't just luck into that kind of arc and you can't create that by copy pasting other people's work. Kubo has a lot of weaknesses as a writer that became more and more apparent as the story continued to go on but to try and pretend like he had zero talent as a writer is absurd

  19. #3199

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    I'd say it's pretty extreme to write off an entire long-running Shonen series as "shit writing with no substance" or whatever. Probably not my place to join whatever that arguement was though. I like my anime long, my casts big, and my supporting casts to be remembered and remain relevant for as much of the series as possible (which I think Fairy Tail does well). As long as I like the main squad of characters, I'll probably enjoy the ride and have a hard time understanding what's so shit about it. Although I have had trouble keeping interested in Black Clover... but that's more of an Asta problem. I could find a few series I'd consider to be in my top 10 that run less than 30 episodes...but most of them would be longer than that.

    I loved watching Ichigo and his friends at the start, and I still loved watching anyone Lieutenant level or lower when they joined in on stuff (Bount Filler included). I'd have a harder time finding things to criticize in those parts. The problems started when the captains starting forcing the spotlight without bringing with them anything fun. Hitsugaya was...close to an exception to the rule, since he was often treated as if he was a glorified Lieutenant. Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Mayuri showing up in Heuco Mundo and (for me) ruining multiple good/potentially good espada fights was the first major disappointment. At least Baraggan's Fraccion were pretty entertaining, but that was it for the rest of that arc.

    The Fullbringers was pretty good for awhile, but then back to the same disappointment when the Soul Reapers returned and of course Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Hitsugaya were there. Renji didn't give much entertainment either, unfortunately. At least Madarame was there too and was entertaining.

    The Quincy War started pretty good I felt. The first and second attacks were great. Byakuya's death would've been so awesome a scene... but then we get the 0 division showing up and ruining it all. Didn't care for them at all, or their "big recovery strategy" for Ichigo and Renji. Then the main attack started and things were constantly jumping around between "That was fun" and "That was not." My least favorites were...anything Mayuri or Kenpachi related. Hitsugaya was at least dead for most of it and Byakuya didn't really do anything until the last man (so at least his ressurection wasn't running around ruining things).

    I could say the same stuff for Fairy Tail, but that'd just be elaborating on "Erza fights suck, except these couple that don't." "What was the point of Raven Tail?" and "Man, that last arc completely fell apart." The friendship asspulls is an overblown complaint though, as Erza was the only really bad offender with it.

  20. #3200

    Default Re: Bleach Discussion █: Soul Society, but not!

    Most people here, myself included, got into Bleach precisely because of the early stuff. The art style was great and Kubo did a really good job with the monster of the week stuff with some really great emotional moments. Then Soul Society happened and while there may be some minor issues here and there it was overall great and ended on a pretty good note making many crave to see what happened. It was overtime after that where Kubo's lack of planning became more and more apparent, and as the Aizen stuff got closer to a close any hope of a good payoff for the various plot threads came crashing down. Once that arc ended, at least for me, any good will I had vanished and even if you can argue that the other arcs started with potential, I knew it wouldn't end well.

    Early on, Kubo did show talent and the manga got popularity for good reason, but over time whether ego, burnout, or something else he squandered all that good will and eventually it lost its quality. That said, unlike other series that I loved that went downhill later on (Toriko and Shokugeki no Soma), there was something about Kubo's writing that while still terrible and easy to dissect why, was charming in its unique terribleness. The randomness of the quincies abilities and transformations made me want to see just how crazy Kubo got with them as time went on, and how he would decide to wrap up an arc with a villain who in all rights was impossible to beat. So I suppose that's a talent in its own way.

    I am slowly wanting to read through this series again. Haven't read it since the manga ended and I do want to relive it again.

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