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Thread: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

  1. #5441

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain M View Post
    I love the idea of Logue as in pro/epilogue, I think it fits really well with the story and the town's role in it, but isn't the Japanese name written with the long ou sound of Rogue? I'm no Japanese expert, but surely there would have been a way to write it with the shorder, harder o of pro/epilogue if that was what Oda intended.
    First, as I already noted, translation is a crazy thing. There's not always a correct answer and its up to the local translator that's fluent in the language to make that call. As a result you can get a case like Jinbe/Jinbei/Jimbei where all are perfectly correct spellings. Meanwhile, Franky is officially Franky, but Flanky pops up from time to time and is clearly wrong.

    Second, Oda himself is not a fluent English speaker. 99.9% of the time author's intent is king, but not when it comes to different languages if they don't have a firm grasp on it or a pro translator helping them. A really clear example of this is Shilliew. The English translation made that "Shiryu" as is appropriate. The Japanese manga then later printed in english block letters "Shilliew". Ten years later, the data cards also went with "Shilliew", confirming that spelling. And then, just a couple weeks after that, he showed up in the manga again, and suddenly, in big english block letters, it was "Shiryu". Somewhere along the way, apparently very recently, Oda had someone tell him what it should be in English, and he changed it. Even though just a few weeks prior in the datacards it was different.

    Then there's other cases. 99.9% of the time, you DON'T translate a character's name. Because it's their name. We don't call Nami "Wave". But then you get Shirohige and Kurohige, Whitebeard and Blackbeard, and their names get translated for obvious reasons. Same with Inurashi and Nekomamushi... they became Dogstorm and Catviper. Because their names ARE specifically descriptors, you're meant to parse the meaning of their names as a native speaker and that gets lost. Yet similar named character Inuyasha, in the manga Inuyasha, doesn't get that translated and keeps his name. And Wanda didn't become "Barkda".

    Or you have a character like Rocks, which the translation makes into Rox just to be clear it's a name.

    There's a huge variety of things to consider in a translation.

    So yes, in theory he could have spelled Raftel in way that would clearly have all along translated in Laugh Tale. But, that would assume he was fluent in English, he cared about the English speaking audience, he understood how weird that would sound in English to a native speaker, and that it was an idea he had 22 years ago rather than recently. And that's a lot of assumptions to make on a *translation* issue when his main concern is the Japanese audience..


    I still think of Berserk where it's been Band of the Hawks for decades, in the anime, manga, merchandise, both english and japanese, and then a few years ago Muira revealed it was actually a long term star wars joke, so it was always supposed to be Band of the Falcon. A huge huge difference in sound and meaning... but that was the same in Japanese so it never really mattered or came up until there was an explicit "Millennium Falcon" reference. (Translations dealt with this by making the flashback group the Hawks, and the post-eclipse group the Falcons.)
    Last edited by Robby; August 11th, 2019 at 02:26 PM.
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  2. #5442

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I remember talking about this when I 1st got the volume sets. There was some trivia in the 1st volume about the origins of the jolly roger and what it meant. It derived from the French term Jolie Rouge which means Red Lovely. It is a reference to blood.

    Then it said that the name and word Roger comes from the word rogue, which means thief or villain. Then it lastly says that in theory, Jolly Roger might mean Old Roger, which was used to refer to the Devil.

    When it comes to Romance, there are many meanings, so it's a pun.

    - satisfaction in the journey and mystery - Skypiea etc
    - the bonds formed through principles and will like with Luffy and Kata


    Even tho Rouge and Rogue are different, they can still possibly derive from the same source

  3. #5443
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    No difference in pronunciation of the 'final island' name in the movie as compared to the rest of the series. Not like they say it every week of course but nothing hit the Japanese fans I saw it with as different either.

    There wasn't a difference of pronunciation denoted in the script and I doubt the VAs paid much attention to even if they saw finished animation while recording.

    Same as always.

    When it comes to Romance, there are many meanings, so it's a pun.
    That's not a pun though.

    A pun is a humorous play on words.
    I think what you're looking for is double entente but it's not that either. It's simply one definition of romance. It hits Westerners as uncommon because of how we've come to prefer one definition, but the Japanese term 'roman' is exclusively used for pursuing a dream/passion.
    Last edited by Greg; August 11th, 2019 at 02:53 PM.

  4. #5444

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    True, double entendre is correct and pun is incorrect here.

    As a Westerner, I don't find it weird if the themes apply to that 1 definition. I feel like the trivia applies to Logue/Rogue town tho due to Roger's name and the theories provided

    https://imgur.com/hejF3ee

  5. #5445

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    First, as I already noted, translation is a crazy thing. There's not always a correct answer and its up to the local translator that's fluent in the language to make that call. As a result you can get a case like Jinbe/Jinbei/Jimbei where all are perfectly correct spellings. Meanwhile, Franky is officially Franky, but Flanky pops up from time to time and is clearly wrong.

    Second, Oda himself is not a fluent English speaker. 99.9% of the time author's intent is king, but not when it comes to different languages if they don't have a firm grasp on it or a pro translator helping them. A really clear example of this is Shilliew. The English translation made that "Shiryu" as is appropriate. The Japanese manga then later printed in english block letters "Shilliew". Ten years later, the data cards also went with "Shilliew", confirming that spelling. And then, just a couple weeks after that, he showed up in the manga again, and suddenly, in big english block letters, it was "Shiryu". Somewhere along the way, apparently very recently, Oda had someone tell him what it should be in English, and he changed it. Even though just a few weeks prior in the datacards it was different.

    Then there's other cases. 99.9% of the time, you DON'T translate a character's name. Because it's their name. We don't call Nami "Wave". But then you get Shirohige and Kurohige, Whitebeard and Blackbeard, and their names get translated for obvious reasons. Same with Inurashi and Nekomamushi... they became Dogstorm and Catviper. Because their names ARE specifically descriptors, you're meant to parse the meaning of their names as a native speaker and that gets lost. Yet similar named character Inuyasha, in the manga Inuyasha, doesn't get that translated and keeps his name. And Wanda didn't become "Barkda".

    Or you have a character like Rocks, which the translation makes into Rox just to be clear it's a name.

    There's a huge variety of things to consider in a translation.

    So yes, in theory he could have spelled Raftel in way that would clearly have all along translated in Laugh Tale. But, that would assume he was fluent in English, he cared about the English speaking audience, he understood how weird that would sound in English to a native speaker, and that it was an idea he had 22 years ago rather than recently. And that's a lot of assumptions to make on a *translation* issue when his main concern is the Japanese audience..


    I still think of Berserk where it's been Band of the Hawks for decades, in the anime, manga, merchandise, both english and japanese, and then a few years ago Muira revealed it was actually a long term star wars joke, so it was always supposed to be Band of the Falcon. A huge huge difference in sound and meaning... but that was the same in Japanese so it never really mattered or came up until there was an explicit "Millennium Falcon" reference. (Translations dealt with this by making the flashback group the Hawks, and the post-eclipse group the Falcons.)
    I've made a lot of the same arguments in discussions about translation. We're on exactly the same page regarding translation philosophy.

    The point I was going for was that in the specific case of Loguetown/Roguetown it can't just be an L and R swap. The word rogue, with its longer oh sound in the middle has a pretty noticeable difference in pronunciation to prologue, with the harder log at the end. The Japanese text, which operates in a mainly phonetic sense with foreign words, clearly indicates the former pronunciation.

    Unless of course it is because Oda isn't a native English speaker and he heard rogue then saw prologue and made the reasonable but wrong assumption they'd be pronounced the same in which case I don't even know.

  6. #5446

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Those words are different if you're saying them out loud, in english, and you know the difference as a native speaker. But if its a foreign language to you? And you're reading it? Eh. Super easy to mix up.

    Hell, I'm an english native and i mix up rogue and rouge constantly, which is bad for the One Piece character whose name I can never spell right as a result. I know they're pronounced differently, one is rowg and the other is ruhsh but I have a hard time with which is which and spell check does not help..

    What's the difference between principle and principal?
    Can you desert someone in a desert?
    Is a minute a minute amount of time?
    Can you entrance someone with your entrance?
    Is there no time like the present to present a friend with a present?
    Why is six afraid of seven? Because seven ate nine.
    Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

    In Japanese what's the difference between biru and bi-ru? Okashi and okashii?
    In French, what is the difference between Un verre, un Ver, Vers, un vers, and vert?
    How do you pronounce the name of the Batman villain Ra's al Ghul?

    Language is tough and nuance is even tougher. Especially in a foreign language you don't speak fluently. Expecting any author whose native language is something else to get all the nuance in a language you understand is asking a lot. And doubly so in English which is super crazy because its a mix of loan words.
    Last edited by Robby; August 12th, 2019 at 04:00 AM. Reason: I'll refrain from bringing up Mister Mxyzptlk since that's just keyboard mashing
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  7. #5447

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Robby View Post
    Those words are different if you're saying them out loud, in english, and you know the difference as a native speaker. But if its a foreign language to you? And you're reading it? Eh. Super easy to mix up.

    Hell, I'm an english native and i mix up rogue and rouge constantly, which is bad for the One Piece character whose name I can never spell right as a result.

    What's the difference between principle and principal?
    Can you desert someone in a desert?
    Is a minute a minute amount of time?
    Can you entrance someone with your entrance?
    Is there no time like the present to present a friend with a present?
    Why is six afraid of seven? Because seven ate nine.

    In Japanese what's the difference between biru and bi-ru? Okashi and okashii? In French, what is the difference between Un verre, un Ver, Vers, un vers, and vert?

    Language is tough and nuance is even tougher. Especially in a foreign language you don't speak fluently. Expecting any author whose native language is something else to get all the nuance in a language you understand is asking a lot. And doubly so in English which is super crazy because its a mix of loan words.

    Keep in mind, that this is a real sentence that means something.
    "Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo."

    Real sentence, that describes bison hanging out in a city intimidating other bison from the city.
    So yeah, basically the last line of my previous comment

    And it's a fair take, English has enough stupid inconsistencies to deal with before you even start working translation into the mix. I write professionally and there's things I still get wrong, a lot of them to do with pronouncing things the way they're written. Alright, maybe I was harsh on the prologue/epilogue angle. We know finding the right way to translate One Piece is hard for us, but I think it ends up getting easy to forget how hard it must be for Oda to set up in the first place as well. I doubt I'd do half as well as he does with English if I had to write with Japanese loanwords...

    And I do love that buffalo sentence. Great example of how weird things can get around here. Although, the Chinese have us beat with their story that's just 90 different inflections on shi​ in a row.

  8. #5448
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Cockycent View Post
    True, double entendre is correct and pun is incorrect here.

    As a Westerner, I don't find it weird if the themes apply to that 1 definition. I feel like the trivia applies to Logue/Rogue town tho due to Roger's name and the theories provided

    https://imgur.com/hejF3eehttps://imgur.com/hejF3ee
    Ah! No, sorry if I wasn't clear. What I meant was, it wasn't intended to be anything but the 'following a dream' meaning in Japanese so prob not a case of a hidden meaning.

    But! The epi-logue and pro-logue things could totally be hidden on purpose.

    Then again, stranger coincidences have occurred...like 'Luff' being a nautical term completely unbeknownst to Oda!!! (^o^)

  9. #5449

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I'm always thinking about that Rick and Morty "if you want good words date a languager" quote when Oda does something weird in quasi-english. For all his talent it's only fair that he too is terrible at some facet of life.

  10. #5450
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    I'm always thinking about that Rick and Morty "if you want good words date a languager" quote when Oda does something weird in quasi-english. For all his talent it's only fair that he too is terrible at some facet of life.
    Years ago he told me he said he doesn't need to learn another language because eventually there will be a translator device you hold in your hand.

    Dude is not far off the mark. We're getting there.

  11. #5451

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    In my opinion he is far off the mark, because even if humanity gets real-time translation that erases current bounderies of communication (which would be awesome), it's very different to actually learn another language and its grammar, logic, structures and idiosyncrasies. That said, I understand that learning another language demands a lot of time and effort, so it's understandable why Oda would be waiting for technology to help him.

    Though I must say that while society waits for such an app, I don't understand why WSJ doesn't have part-time translators/consultants dedicated to help authors with romanization and other stuff for the official japanese release.

  12. #5452
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Nah mate.
    It's coming. Still a while but it'll happen.

    We have robots doing backflips, AI that will soon surpass humans, and many adults in developed countries hold a device in their palms they can use to communicate via vide with people around the world gratis.

    All stuff that sounded impossible when I was a kid.

    The leaps and bounds in Google translate are already remarkable. I give it another 15 years max at this rate.

    I mean.... we already have apps that real-time translate printed text in real life.

  13. #5453

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Until you can put a thing in your body that auto translate both the input and output it ain't enough for me

  14. #5454

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Another excuse for the government to invade my privacy. I'm still gonna buy it tho

  15. #5455

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Nah mate.
    It's coming. Still a while but it'll happen.

    We have robots doing backflips, AI that will soon surpass humans, and many adults in developed countries hold a device in their palms they can use to communicate via vide with people around the world gratis.

    All stuff that sounded impossible when I was a kid.

    The leaps and bounds in Google translate are already remarkable. I give it another 15 years max at this rate.

    I mean.... we already have apps that real-time translate printed text in real life.
    You are misunderstanding me, or perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

    Of course this technology will come soon enough, no doubt about it... I just disagree with this idea that you don't need to learn another language just because a new app can make real-time translation. I don't deny that this kind of technology is really useful and it'll be great for society, but that doesn't take away from a lot you can benefit by actually learning a new language. Also, languages are complicated and translations are never 100%.

    It pains me to think that people would stop studying new languages in 20 years just because of an app.

  16. #5456
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    I tots agree that learning a language is a good thing. Don't think I suggested otherwise. But...

    Also, languages are complicated and translations are never 100%.
    Not right now, no. But they will be. And Oda had the confidence to state that with authority before we had apps that literally translate real life for us. That's all I'm saying :)

    Teaching a language is literally my job so if anyone should be sour it's me ^O^ But I'm not going to deny the inevitability of what will happen.

  17. #5457

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    unless some revolutionary discovery is made, we are not at all on the path of creating good machine translators lmao

  18. #5458
    POE WUN BGR Greg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    unless some revolutionary discovery is made
    That's it folks. You heard Lord Gaimon, pack it in. There's nothing more to discover.

    RIP
    Revolutionary Discoveries
    Dawn of Tools - 2019

    lol
    I gave up on the, "There's no way that's possible!", hard-stance in life when they announced they're getting closer to recording mental images and the means by which it's accomplished is remarkable: massive video databases that attempt to replicate what an individual is thinking. Imagine when that's fine-tuned 100 years from now and instantly searching yottabytes of video from the entirety of human history can be done by consumer devices.

    Once enough search algorithms are added and biological states are interpreted by AI systems indicating purpose and context, it will happen.
    Last edited by Greg; August 12th, 2019 at 09:40 PM.

  19. #5459

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    My mind is still blown by video conferencing technology. That was complete science fiction just 20 years ago, and the internet was still kind of a new thing, now its standard on every laptop. Laptops which were themselves basically science fiction 30 years ago.

    Technology keeps progressing. Just look at the AI they have playing Go. A few years ago they said it would be impossible for a machine to ever master that game because it took human intuition, (unlike Chess which has a small enough board its solvable) but lo, they now have Alpha Go which is leagues better than any human player that has ever lived and is basically unbeatable even by grandmasters.... except for the AI that came right after it which is even better. Thousands of years of humans playing the game and the computer has it completely locked down now.

    Technology is crazy. Outside of Star Trek style matter transporters, we're going to get there assuming we survive long enough as a species. We already have low end replicators in 3D printers, which can make 3D objects from a file and can even make organs now. Not the sci-fi Trek replicator, but still insane.
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  20. #5460

    Default Re: Greg: Teacher of SUPER " OP " course !

    From what i heard, translating a newspaper article is close but translating an author still has a lot of issues. So Stephen has still some time

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