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Thread: Random News Article Discussion II

  1. #13781

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Thing is, I really don't think you get the meaning of the video. You're still arguing against something nobody said and redefining your point to something nobody was contesting, while largely ignoring counter-arguments and the fact that a lot of what you're saying is really not relevant to the discussion at hand. Even CCC is on the same page as me now when he acknowledged Femme's summary. You keep saying context matters but... you're the one who lacks it here?
    Wellllllp, you're wrong, then. I get what Femme is saying, I get what the point of the video was, but I think that the video was just about as wrong as you are in understanding the arguments of people who think that racism cannot be reduced to "individual" and "institutional" concepts only. What counter-arguments have I ignored, hmm?

    You know what? Nevermind. I've made my position clear, even Outerspec seems to understand where I'm coming from. If you can't recognize that I'm basically arguing the "point" to the video's "counterpoint", then I think that's on you, not me. Let's just agree to disagree.
    Last edited by benjamminbrown; June 2nd, 2017 at 09:35 AM.

  2. #13782

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Wellllllp, you're wrong, then. I get what Femme is saying, I get what the point of the video was, but I think that the video was just about as wrong as you are in understanding the arguments of people who think that racism cannot be reduced to "individual" and "institutional" concepts only. What counter-arguments have I ignored, hmm?
    Which, again, nobody was ever saying. Nobody said "here are these two buckets and they are the only two buckets ever, which shall never intersect and are unrelated in every way." You're debating a ghost and at this point I don't even get what the significance is of your nitpick, since ultimately the point was just to illustrate a basic problematic scenario, not be the ultimate authoritative source for the various contextual uses of the word "racism."

  3. #13783

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Foolio View Post
    Which, again, nobody was ever saying. Nobody said "here are these two buckets and they are the only two buckets ever, which shall never intersect and are unrelated in every way." You're debating a ghost and at this point I don't even get what the significance is of your nitpick, since ultimately the point was just to illustrate a basic problematic scenario and not be the ultimate authoritative source for the various contextual uses of the word "racism."
    This is really going to be my last post on the subject, so please let's drop it here:

    When I say "individual" and "institutional" concepts only, I mean "only" in the sense that each concept can be discussed without necessarily taking into account the other. Not that these are the only two concepts that racism can be reduced to. I'm arguing that this separation of concepts cannot and should not be done, and to attempt to do so is to reduce the enormous, complex concept of racism into something that it is not. By limiting your discussion to these aspects of a bigger problem without understanding how the problem exists as a whole, you force yourself to talk about something else entirely. That's my point.

    I'm not arguing with a ghost, I'm arguing with the video, while you're completely missing the points of my arguments. That's that.

  4. #13784

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    That still doesn't directly relate to what the video was addressing. It really doesn't. Exchanges like the one mentioned in the video happen all the time. Like, in this thread and the reason the video was posted. And the problems that arise are semantic -- one group of people is interpreting the word's meaning extremely rigidly, while the other believes it to be contextually flexible given its multiple common uses and dictionary definitions. It's neither here nor there whether the different manifestations of racism (or bigotry, or whatever the fuck you want to semantically call it) are possible in absolute isolation.

  5. #13785

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Basically the whole video hinges on the validity of being able to discuss personal and institutional racial prejudice as separate concepts, so I frankly have to disagree with your assessment that my arguments don't relate to the video whatsoever. Again, let's just agree to disagree.

  6. #13786

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Well, context is important, and therefore semantics isn't a negligible aspect - especially if both parties are not on the same platform.
    Individual vs Institutionalized racism is a very common problem in any argument involving racism.

    I had an argument with a decidedly racist guy in a Japanese forum who seems to think racism only exist in institutionalized form, and refuse to acknowledge individual racism is a thing.

    TBH I think *most* people refer to individual racism in discussions as it is a more abundant - and therefore more obviously visible - trait.

  7. #13787
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?


    I thought of Godzilla as the embodiment of violence and hatred for mankind, because he was created by atomic energy. He's like a symbol of humanity's complicity in their own destruction. He doesn't have an emotion. He is an emotion. Jun Fukuda

  8. #13788

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    Well, context is important, and therefore semantics isn't a negligible aspect - especially if both parties are not on the same platform.
    Individual vs Institutionalized racism is a very common problem in any argument involving racism.

    I had an argument with a decidedly racist guy in a Japanese forum who seems to think racism only exist in institutionalized form, and refuse to acknowledge individual racism is a thing.

    TBH I think *most* people refer to individual racism in discussions as it is a more abundant - and therefore more obviously visible - trait.
    Likewise I again want to point out a lot of what makes up the institutional racism is sometimes thousands of squirming well positioned acts of individual racism.
    Take something like a landlord reacting negatively to a potential renter being black. Maybe giving instant preference to a competing white renter prospect for the same property.
    Now multiply this type of landlord by thousands and walaa!
    Institutional racism issue: Housing discrimination.

    Hell it's this very side of institutional racism as made up of individual acts that really provides the main meaning when people say stuff like "Changing the laws is only one part of combatting [form of prejudice]."

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky Dragon View Post
    This guy is kind of the Russian populist equivalent (mixed in with a bit of Bernie/Corbyn), somewhat boosted by the global wave of Russian backed likeminds....seeping home.
    So it would be quite delicious to see Putin hoisted on his own petard, or at least made to sweat a bunch.
    If this guy can even just crack Putin's facade in Russia that would own.

  9. #13789

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aohige_AP View Post
    TBH I think *most* people refer to individual racism in discussions as it is a more abundant - and therefore more obviously visible - trait.
    I agree, that's basically the reason this clash exists to begin with. How deep or meaningful those discussions get is an unrelated matter when there is already a confrontation and barrier on what word you're allowed to use.

    But I guess those discussions are just babbles of nonsense anyway, because they probably lack the hyper-critical uncouple-able incorporation of institutional racism! In fact these days I don't even say the word without handing my conversation partners a 50-page pamphlet outlining the entire history of society and the complex racial issues woven therein.

  10. #13790

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    I can't roll my eyes hard enough!

  11. #13791

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post


    This guy is kind of the Russian populist equivalent (mixed in with a bit of Bernie/Corbyn), somewhat boosted by the global wave of Russian backed likeminds....seeping home.
    So it would be quite delicious to see Putin hoisted on his own petard, or at least made to sweat a bunch.
    If this guy can even just crack Putin's facade in Russia that would own.
    In principle I'd be against that. Buuuuuut Fuck Puttin.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by that report
    "Putin doesn't trust the Internet. He believes that it's a trash can, that no real information exists there. He himself doesn't use it, and therefore his bureaucracy, in general, is not using it as well," she said.
    This is false. The russian troll army is everywhere.
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  12. #13792

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II

    Quote Originally Posted by benjamminbrown View Post
    Oh, there's no denying that the change in the way the word racism is used that I've suggested is an oversimplification of a more complex problem. The key is that it's a step in the right direction. There are all sorts of intricacies to the way racial bias is acquired and acted out... but I think that adapting our existing language to begin to address this quality of the problem will make it easier for the general populace to begin to see just how complex of a problem it is.
    I don't see how it does that at all, it specifies things down and sidesteps virtually all of what I mentioned in the process.
    If you look up the definition of the word power in the dictionary, you see all of the common meanings for such a word. But you can also look on Wikipedia and see that there is a very specialized use of this word in science. That's the sort of thing I'm getting at, here.
    Racism is in the same field regardless of the definition here though? It's all sociological?

    Eventually that meaning takes hold and becomes an important part of the definition of the word, something that is recognized as ultimately correct and indisputable (for now).
    It's not going to happened man.
    It's a little unfair, I think, to say that this is all just academic blithering and essentially a waste of time. Maybe it's just me and the social circles that I run in, but this is a question that has sprung up repeatedly in my life, with different groups and in different social settings. And that's not to say that it's something that I bring up... for the most part, when this topic presents itself, I am essentially an observer. It seems to me that this debate over the meaning of the word, and whether it should be adjusted to address the importance of the social status/power of the individuals at play when racial bias exhibits itself,
    The thing that makes your whole argument kind of nonsensical is that you are pushing this definition because it would help enlighten people to the matter of power/status. But then the people who are using it are people who are already entirely well aware of that, and it almost requires one to already be enlightened for it to even be considered.
    So ...who is it enlightening?
    Meanwhile it still skips over a blizzard of complexities and seems to almost stem from a conversation of racism involving blacks and whites and....no other real aspect.
    is diffusing into the general populace.
    It's not.
    In my eyes, this debate is good and probably also a natural precursor to an organic change in the way the word will be used in the future.
    The people most in need of realizing the power factor are the people who will MOST strongly reject this use of the word.
    Of course, I could be wrong, and you do make some good points. Maybe the people advocating for the change are all poindexters like me and fated to fail in the face of other social pressures.
    It's not that it is academic, it is that it has the feel of something strictly academic. Something being taught to the pre-disposed and already advanced and deeply interested. When unlike sharing advanced theoretical physics, this issue is deeply constantly important to all of everyone there is.

  13. #13793
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Not to fan any flames but I can definitely see where benjammin is coming from and I think a lot of you are off base when you talk about his points. The sunny conclusion that the video draws, that we should all just stick to calling racists racist no matter the color or situation, is exactly what the "blacks can't be racist" crowd is trying to fight. The effort didn't come about because some African Americans thought sociological re-contextualization of definitions was cool, it happened as a reaction to some white people viewing racism as an equal game. If racism, which is already a loaded word in America, is best used on the individual level that everyone is accustomed to, then to the average individual there is no difference between a white person calling a black person the N word and a black person calling a white person a cracker. Just a couple of racists. For whom would that definition be most beneficial?

    A lot of you got frustrated from the 2016 election between Hilary and Trump and the way a lot of people were using a different sides but they're both bad argument. Trump was clearly much worse than Hilary and equating the two was disingenuous. In that same vein, when a black person has a conversation with her white friend and her friend equates their experiences with racist individuals its also wrong or at the very least ignorant. One is clearly more harmful on both an individual and societal level. This is what leads black people to argue so ferociously for what amounts to a semantics difference. Its a reaction against what they feel is a downplaying of the experience they go through, which to be honest has happened a lot throughout American history.

    It doesn't help that many times people will use the fallacious "its all just racism" argument as evidence for why minorities should suck it up and deal with it like everyone else, as an excuse to not have to address the institutional level where these incidents are reinforced, or even to claim victimhood themselves with cries of the perils of reverse racism. And to be clear, the institutional level doesn't just mean the laws and rules a governing system can create. As Monkey King said, it also takes into account the aggregate power of numerous individual incidents.

    Ultimately, I doubt anything comes from this so its a moot point, mostly because the people who reject the idea are the people that would need to accept the idea for it to gain any real traction. I can't fight cigarette use if cigarette smokers think I'm full of it. I do believe it will eventually become the accepted truth in academia. It just doesn't resonate with the average person, which is unfortunate because it means that meaningful conversations about racism in this country will remain a pipe dream for now.

  14. #13794
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Rightly or wrongly, this whole conversation keeps making me think of Christopher Titus' "I'm Whitey" routine. Specifically the part where he describes how you will tell a joke and let it fly if everyone's the same color as you but if one person in the group happens to be... a photo negative of the rest of you, you gotta run that joke through some filters, don't you?

    In other news:
    http://www.houstonpress.com/news/hou...trolls-9488700

    Texas Antifa, a group that planned a protest rally to remove the statue of Sam Houston, was actually an alt-right trolling group. Evidenced by details such as removing the statue never even being on the mayor's agenda, the more established Houston Antifa made clear that they weren't affiliated and insisted nobody go to the rally, and, when called on this and asked for comment, Texas Antifa responded via Facebook "Being called fake works in our favor. It will bring down how many will go to the counter protest. No more comments, sorry."
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  15. #13795

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Even the term cracker is unbalanced. Cracker is still referring to the white person as the oppressor. It really holds very little impact the way other ethnic based insults do.

  16. #13796

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by algebro View Post
    Not to fan any flames but I can definitely see where benjammin is coming from and I think a lot of you are off base when you talk about his points. The sunny conclusion that the video draws, that we should all just stick to calling racists racist no matter the color or situation, is exactly what the "blacks can't be racist" crowd is trying to fight. The effort didn't come about because some African Americans thought sociological re-contextualization of definitions was cool, it happened as a reaction to some white people viewing racism as an equal game. If racism, which is already a loaded word in America, is best used on the individual level that everyone is accustomed to, then to the average individual there is no difference between a white person calling a black person the N word and a black person calling a white person a cracker. Just a couple of racists. For whom would that definition be most beneficial?
    These are precisely the people who will furiously reject the proposed redefinition and give it about oh....zero seconds of consideration tops.

    A lot of you got frustrated from the 2016 election between Hilary and Trump and the way a lot of people were using a different sides but they're both bad argument. Trump was clearly much worse than Hilary and equating the two was disingenuous. In that same vein, when a black person has a conversation with her white friend and her friend equates their experiences with racist individuals its also wrong or at the very least ignorant. One is clearly more harmful on both an individual and societal level. This is what leads black people to argue so ferociously for what amounts to a semantics difference. Its a reaction against what they feel is a downplaying of the experience they go through, which to be honest has happened a lot throughout American history.
    You are making a lot of assumptions about the races of some of the posters in the discussion.

  17. #13797

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone_Baroness View Post
    Even the term cracker is unbalanced. Cracker is still referring to the white person as the oppressor.

    It really holds very little impact the way other ethnic based insults do.
    Yeah it doesn't seem to have much edge to it.

    It's way more hurtful when you get to hear those long diatribes about how white people are soulless abominations.

  18. #13798

    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Some serious shit is happening in Afghanistan https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-salim-ezadyar
    Also I have no idea what you guys are fighting over.
    Spoiler:

    By fire be purged

  19. #13799
    Someone call for Zeidoktor sgamer82's Avatar
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by firelord111 View Post
    Some serious shit is happening in Afghanistan https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-salim-ezadyar
    Also I have no idea what you guys are fighting over.
    It's right in the subtitle, actually, "Is Racism Racist." For some reason it's unclear. More seriously, it seems to be about the difference between individual and institutional racism. To me, other than scale, as was pointed out to me earlier, there really isn't a meaningful one.
    Last edited by sgamer82; June 3rd, 2017 at 09:24 AM.
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    Statler: No you haven't.
    Both: DOHOHOHOHOHO!

  20. #13800
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    Default Re: Random News Article Discussion II: is racism racist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    These are precisely the people who will furiously reject the proposed redefinition and give it about oh....zero seconds of consideration tops.
    Yeah I'm not arguing that. I'm just saying that the people proposing the redefinition aren't grasping at straws or creating tension needlessly. It's a valid point they are making.

    You are making a lot of assumptions about the races of some of the posters in the discussion.
    Er I didn't think I did but if so that wasn't my intention. I only framed my argument in blacks and whites because the video was about whether blacks can be racist. I wouldn't assume to know anybody's race I haven't met. The big assumption I made was that most of the posters were Hilary supporters which could be false.

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