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Thread: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

  1. #4661

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    To me it's always been clear she use cruelty as a response not a gratuous thing.
    I think she could explode. I don't think she would against those people. Jon her challenger, Tyrion that failed her to much, Sansa plotting in her back, part of the city for refusing to accept their rightful queen. All people that she can has an excuse to explode at. Not people that have done nothing and are accepting her.
    "All right, then. Let it be fear".

    By that point, Daenerys had lost her claim to the throne to Jon and had lost any hope of being able to hold it through love - the people in Westeros love Jon instead of her, the love Jon had for her was betrayed when he told his sisters about his heritage and on this episode she certified it was already condemned. In her eyes, instilling fear in the people of King's Landing is probably the only way to make sure they will bow to her and not to Jon when his origins are inevitably revealed and he claims his position either by his own will or forced by his followers.

    Btw, the user Caprica1 made an extensive list of Daenerys moments that can help this development not seem rushed:
    • 106 - Viserys, after seeing how much the Dothraki love Daenerys, becomes jealous and tries to run away saying “Who can rule without wealth or fear of love.” (Daenerys well echo this sentiment in 804 and 805)• 204 – Daenerys “When my dragons are grown… we will lay waste to armies and burn cities to the ground.”
    • 206 – Daenerys “I will take what is mine with fire and blood.”
    • 207 - Cersei Lannister “Half the Targaryens went mad, didn't they? What's the saying? "Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin."
    • 210 – Daenerys has a vision of a destroyed throne room. She reaches out to the throne but never touches it.
    • 303 – Daenerys when speaking about her brother Rhaegar “…he was not the last dragon.”
    • 404 - Daenerys executes 163 Meereenese noblemen. In 406 we learn some of these men were innocent. Daenerys shows absolutely no regret.
    • 405 – Daenerys speaking with Jorah. “You counseled me against rashness once in Qarth. I didn’t listen. It all worked out well.”
    • 407 – Jorah tells Daenerys “The masters treated men like beasts, as you said. Herding the masters into pens and slaughtering them by the thousands is also treating men like beasts.” Reminding her “I wouldn't be here to help you if Ned Stark had done to me what you want to do to the masters of Yunkai.”
    • 407 – Daenerys “They can live in my new world or they can die in their old one.”
    • 505 – Daenerys executes an innocent Meereenese nobleman for the sole purpose of intimidating the other nobles.
    • 505 – Daenerys reopens the fighting pits allowing for innocent men to kill one another for entertainment.
    • 508 – Daenerys “I’m not going to stop the wheel. I’m going to break the wheel.”
    • 604 – Daenerys murders the leaders of the Dothraki for the sole purpose of consolidating power.
    • 606 – Dario to Daenerys “You weren’t made to sit on a chair in a palace. You’re a conquer, Daenerys Stormborn.”
    • 606 – Daenerys to the Dothraki “Will you kill my enemies in their iron suits and tear down their stone houses?”
    • 609 – Speaking about the masters Daenerys swears to “Kill every one of their soldiers and return their cities to the dirt.” Tyrion responds “You once told me you knew what your father was. Did you know his plans for King’s Landing?” Daenerys “This is entirely different!” Tyrion “You’re talking about destroying cities. It’s not entirely different.”
    • 702 – Yara Greyjoy, Olenna Tyrell, and Ellaria Sand all try to convince Daenerys to use her dragons on King’s Landing. Tyrion convinces her to do otherwise. (This is important as Tyrion’s plans fail, and his repeated failures show Daenerys there’s no other option)
    • 702 - Olenna Tyrell “Commoners and nobles are all children really. They won’t obey you unless they fear you.” And later. “You’re a dragon. Be a dragon.”
    • 704 – After news of her army’s defeat at Casterly Rock, Daenerys questions Tyrion’s plans and his loyalty.
    • 704 – Daenerys “Enough with the clever plans. I have 3 large dragons. I’m going to fly them to the red keep.”
    • 705 – Daenerys executes Randal and Dickon Tarly when imprisonment was a perfectly viable option.
    • 705 – Tyrion “Daenerys is not her father.” Varys “And she never will be with the right counsel. You need to find a way to make her listen.”
    • 705 – Tyrion devises a convoluted plan to capture a wight to convince Cersi to help fight the night King. Over the rest of seasons 7 and 8 this plan goes horribly wrong and results in the death of a dragon. The failure of this plan further degrades Daenerys’ trust of Tyrion.
    • 801 – Lyanna Mormon publically confronts Jon Snow about giving up his crown and swearing allegiance to Daenerys. This is the beginning of Daenerys’ realization that she has no love in Westeros.
    • 802 – Daenerys is angry that Tyrion’s advice about Cersei turned out to be wrong. Saying “Either you are a traitor or a fool.” And “Cersei still sits on the throne. If you can’t help me take it back I will find another Hand who can.”
    • 803 – Jorah is killed in battle. He has proven to be one of the few advisors Daenerys had that tried to temper her impulses.
    • 804 – Daenerys sees people praising Jon Snow and becomes jealous.
    • 804 – Tormund “What kind of person climbs on a fucking dragon? A madman, or a king!” (I’d like to point out when Tormund says “madman” it cuts to a shot of Dany, and when he says “or a king!” it cuts to Jon)
    • 804 – Speaking about Jorah to Jon, Daenerys “He loved me and I couldn’t love him back. Not the way he wanted. Not the way I love you.” (Her love for Jon is not returned in 805)
    • 804 – Daenerys “I saw them gathered around you. I saw the way they looked at you. I know that look. So many people have looked at me that way but never here.”
    • 804 – Varys “These are the people you came here to protect. Do not destroy the city you came to save…” Daenerys “I’m here to save the world fromy tyrants… and I will serve it, no matter the cost.”
    • 804 - Daenerys “Speaking to Cersei will not prevent a slaughter. But perhaps its good the people see Daenerys Stormborn made every effort to avoid bloodshed and Cersei Lannister refused. They should know whom to blame when the sky falls down on them.” (We should note she is directly talking about “The People” here)
    • 804 – Missandei’s final words before her execution. “Dracarys”.
    • 805 – Varys “They say every time a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath.”
    • 805 – Daenerys speaking to Jon “Far more people in Westeros love you than love me. I don’t have love here. I only have fear.”
    • 805 – After a half hearted kiss with Jon, Daenerys says “Alright then. Let it be fear.” (Echoing what Viserys said in 106)
    • 805 – Tyrion “The people who live there, they’re not your enemies. They’re innocents.” Daenerys “Your sister knows how to use their enemies weaknesses against them. That’s what she thinks our mercy is. Our mercy is our strength. Our mercy toward future generations who will not be held hostage by a tyrant.” (She’s all but saying she’s not going to show mercy and will butcher everyone in the city)
    • 805 – Daenerys to Tyrion. “Next time your fail me will be the last time you fail me.”
    And that’s just what I can remember off the top of my head.
    Here’s the point. Daenerys threatened multiple times to burn cities to the ground, she executed/murdered innocent people numerous times to consolidate power, she realized without love all she has left to rule with was fear, and she grew to distrust the only advisor trying to prevent her from burning down King’s landing.
    She wasn’t “acting out of character” at any point in 805. She literally did the thing she’s threatened to do for multiple seasons.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...at_lead_up_to/

  2. #4662

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Hey at least we got cleganebowl.
    You know what pisses me off at the end of the day
    It's how euron die.
    Dude should have died a painful excruciating death instead of being so stupid he actually died somewhat happy.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    "All right, then. Let it be fear".

    By that point, Daenerys had lost her claim to the throne to Jon and had lost any hope of being able to hold it through love - the people in Westeros love Jon instead of her, the love Jon had for her was betrayed when he told his sisters about his heritage and on this episode she certified it was already condemned. In her eyes, instilling fear in the people of King's Landing is probably the only way to make sure they will bow to her and not to Jon when his origins are inevitably revealed and he claims his position either by his own will or forced by his followers.

    Btw, the user Caprica1 made an extensive list of Daenerys moments that can help this development not seem rushed:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthron...at_lead_up_to/[/FONT][/COLOR]
    Yes because that's totally my fault for not interpreting it like that.

  3. #4663

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Satsuki View Post
    Already disconfirmed by George himself. Baristan has betrayed us.
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  4. #4664

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by zeltrax225 View Post
    Dude should have died a painful excruciating death instead of being so stupid he actually died somewhat happy.
    Literally this except with Cersei.

  5. #4665

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    I just enjoyed the fact that she was wrong about her forces but right about her methods, and her lies. She could have talked shit at Dany at length for what Dany was doing.
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  6. #4666
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    People are acting as if foreshadowing of Dany the Tyrant == she will torch thousands of innocents with no provocation after the compelte surrender of her enemies and her getting everything she ever wanted. Especially after, time and again, she has resolved to not kill innocent people - "I will not be queen of the ashes", and the ramp-up to this full-on mass murderer moment is so damn short.

    Also:
    1) By this point she has singlehandedly laid waste to a fleet, the entire city battlements, and most of the Golden Company. I don't think she needs to prove anything else in order to "rule by fear"
    2) "Her Targaryen crazy genes kicked in!" Is a terrible, lazy excuse
    3) Seriously, she does it with NO PROVOCATION. Theres not even a random peasant disrespecting her. She doesn't even go after Cersei first! Yes she has used Dragons on her enemies before - but not on defenseless, uninvolved civilians

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Also, is it just me or was Cleganebowl pretty damn stupid?

    First the Hound travels with Arya, then he is left for dead, then he pops up as a retired farmer, then he defends all of humanity from a zombie horde...and then suddenly he is REVENGE MAN CONSUMED BY REVENGE and goes "well, might as well go kill my brother now because that plotlines still open I guess"...despite this not being a focus for YEARS on the show? People say "GET HYPE" but the thing is, there was no hype. Not in the actual show. It feels like something the writers whipped out to appease the fanbase.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Also also:

    Why do the whole thing with JaimeXBrienne and Jaime learning that Bronn was hired by Cersei to kill him if you're gonna have Jaime IMMEDIATELY run back to Cersei, as if he hadn't really considered the consequences of the war against her?

  7. #4667

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    She has killed inocents before, the masters that didn't opose her, she doesn't spare a tought at them ever again.
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  8. #4668
    Division Commander Daz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Theres a pretty huge leap from "some of the slave-owning Masters she collectively executed were revealed to be innocent at a much later date" and "killing thousands of explicitly innocent peasants and razing their city to the ground".

    For all the talk of Daenerys bringing dragons to kings landing the point was to use them to win the war, not to torch the place for the sheer hell of it.

  9. #4669

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Her current leap of logic is "they aren't trowing the doors open for me and my army, therefore they are siding with cersei".

    Also, fat brush justice is no justice, nor here not in kings landing not in the slaver cities. If she wanted to kill all slave owner she should just have done so, not the half measure of killing some of them, but not the ones who explicitelly killed the children, it would have been just, but it would have been fair and lead to stable goverment.

    The Masters weren't inocent, but if you are killing them because slavery, you kill them all, if you are killing them for the children cruxifiction, you kill the ones who gave the order, not pick and chose that number at random and call it justice, because she ended up sparing slavers and murderers that way.

    The crime of Kings landing population is "not loving your mesiah". Like when the Dotraki, Unsulied and the freedmen who went to their knees when she burned their oppresors.
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  10. #4670

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    All the foreshadowing in the world couldn't make up for the poor handling and the breakneck speed by which all of it occures. I don't mind Dany going insane per se, feels pretty plausible, what i do mind however is how they just flip a genocide button on like it's turning on a lamp. Like welp guess i'll burn the children now. Everything feels halfbaked at best and it can't be salvaged

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Did you enjoy the brotherly battle?
    Out of the whole lot it was the least bad thing. Not good by any means and still lacking internal logic but still least bad.

  11. #4671
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Everything feels halfbaked at best
    Spoiler:
    After all that dragonfire?


  12. #4672

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    It's all charred on the outside, but raw and gooey in the inside.

    And agree, we are missing some steps, but she doesn't burn people while she's happy, or we don't care while they are enemies.

    She lost the legitimacy by birthright by the injustices of the succession laws. More oil to the flames.

    She was crubbing her instincts (and her superior firepower) trying to be loved, and that costed her 2 dragons, jorah and Missandei, plus a ton of soldiers. If she had done this from the begining, they would be alive (in her mind), the throne would be hers.

    The thing that I'm concerned is how easilly people brush off talks about "fate" and "birthright" when they like a character. Those are red flags.
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  13. #4673

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    The best part of the episode was Jaime vs Euron.

    A lot of the early battle scenes looked really bad, and I couldn't get the sensation of "actors on a sound stage" out of my head.

  14. #4674

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Spoiler:

  15. #4675

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    People are acting as if foreshadowing of Dany the Tyrant == she will torch thousands of innocents with no provocation after the compelte surrender of her enemies and her getting everything she ever wanted. Especially after, time and again, she has resolved to not kill innocent people - "I will not be queen of the ashes", and the ramp-up to this full-on mass murderer moment is so damn short.
    My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
    When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
    I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.

    My take on that. Could be proven wrong in 6 days, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daz View Post
    Why do the whole thing with JaimeXBrienne and Jaime learning that Bronn was hired by Cersei to kill him if you're gonna have Jaime IMMEDIATELY run back to Cersei, as if he hadn't really considered the consequences of the war against her?
    Jaime became my favorite character by Storm of Swords and Brienne rose to the same level in Feast for Crows, obviously I've been shipping them hard since then, so I really enjoyed their development. It was sweet, nice, made me smile from ear to ear, and still didn't end on a happy tone that would feel out of place.
    As far as I am concerned, it was a perfect development. Specially because now I can have them never going that way on the books without feeling something was missing.

    As for the Bronn scene. Yeah, I don't get what was its purpose.
    Last edited by .access timeco.; May 14th, 2019 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Removing my answer to Huschel. It was a dumb reply since either way the North would oppose her entirely

  16. #4676

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    "All right, then. Let it be fear".
    I think I needed Dany to say that before she started burning people. It would have helped a lot. Because I do like the idea of her snapping like that. But when she and Drogon took to the air again, I just thought she was going after the Red Keep and Cersei. I kept thinking that until Drogon blasted fire at people in the streets. No Dracarys, no nothing. Maybe that's on me, but I also think what she was going to do and why could have been made much more transparent . Have her dragon get (almost) hit to instill some fear into her and remind her of her dead children. Have her see Jon being cheered on again. Show her the corpse of Missandei who has been displayed just for her. Injure Grey Worm. Let some (brave and insane) inhabitant of King's Landing spit in her general direction. And then have her say 'Let it be fear.'

    Not to mention that Dany has already lost one dragon to an opposing army. Does she really believe she can brute force herself on the North and everybody else who will now 100% unite against her?
    Just something fun I made during the latest Survivor playing as Monji:
    Spoiler:


  17. #4677

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by .access timeco. View Post
    My impression is that she didn't get what she wanted yet. With the news of Jon's origins, Cersei became a secondary obstacle to Daenerys. Ok, Cersei was defeated at that point, but did that meant Daenerys was allowed to claim the Iron Throne? For how long? The fact she didn't even went after Cersei for the 1x1 confrontation that everyone was expecting says a lot regarding what place Cersei had in that moment for her (and it was also great in the sense that it denied the public the chance to vent their anger and feel vindicated through Daenerys' violence by giving us the cathartic moment when her actions would feel somehow correct as she opposed the villain).
    When the bells rang, Cersei was defeated, but Daenerys instantly moved on to her main threat. Jon is the rightful king, that's not the kind of claim you can overthrow easily, by majority of votes (the fact Jon was ahead of the army when Cersei forces surrendered while Daenerys was just watching from another point - as if he was the leader and she just the handler of their main weapon - probably also played a role on that scene not being exactly satisfactory from her POV).
    I mean, just watch the episode before the war. As the hours advanced and the siege draw close, did Daenerys seemed even slightly worried about her confrontation with the forces Cersei amassed? She was all about Jon taking the throne from her and everyone who should already respect/love/fear her confabulating behind her back to make sure he would get there.
    she could just ignore jon, he has no proof and no one knows who he is outside of the north, also no one cares about succession this has been established when cercei bacame queen

  18. #4678

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    she could just ignore jon, he has no proof and no one knows who he is outside of the north, also no one cares about succession this has been established when cercei bacame queen
    Didn't Varys write a whole bunch of fuck you notes before his end?

  19. #4679
    Your long-lost brother Jabra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    I wonder what Bronn will be doing in the final episode. I mean they forced a Bronn vs. Jaime & Tyrion plot but then turned it around and now I'm supposed to wait for what?


  20. #4680

    Default Re: Game of Thrones (tv show thread)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Didn't Varys write a whole bunch of fuck you notes before his end?
    that still wouldn't do anything because there's still no proof and jon has no support outside of the north ,and again no one in westeros seems to care about succession also even if everyone starts caring about the law jon gave up all his claims when he joined the nights watch (there's no proof that he died and came back to life and that was shaky reasoning for absolving him of his vows to begin with) and even if he somehow gets support and raises an army to overthrow dany she still has superior militarily force (dragon, unsullied , dothraki , iron islands and dorne won't support jon because of succession laws).

    jon being a threat doesn't make any sense really.

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